Hebrews Chapter 12 Discussion Page 3

Remeber the fall of Lucifer- The son of the morning.

Thank you for the clarification. Much appreciated. Looking for messages ahead

Janet, the great cloud of witnesses would be referring to those mentioned in Hebrews chapter 11. As you know, that chapter speaks about the definition of faith & then lists some of the Old Testament folk who were commended for their faith in God in spite of the circumstances they found themselves in. So, the point of the chapter is to show us that God looks for genuine faith in us towards Him. Therefore, the writer is suggesting in Chapter 12, that since these old-timers who were accepted by God because of their faith, they might be watching (witnessing) us to see whether we have that faith that God is pleased with ( Heb 11:6).

Who are the great cloud of witness?

Hate is a fire that burns on thoughts of revenge, and mental plots. As long as it has fuel; it burns and burns

Yes. The past is the past. You hit the reset button. All things goes on as before BUT with a new outlook. And a new nature. This new thing in you is the Holy Spirit, which was not there before. Amen and may God bless you.

It seems you were correct as i did not leave everything at the foot of the cross, unconfessed sin, hate for a certain person that i had trusted. I did not want to let go of it and it was eating away, I have repented of it and I do feel better but still struggle with self condemnation, but i found a scripture in 1st John If our heart condemns us God is greater than our heart. Does that mean that the lord knows my heart and even though i condemn myself he still loves me and knows i want to live for him? I really could use some help with this.

Page 2.

Heb 10:26,27 is essentially a word of warning to those who apostatize (go back to their Jewish beliefs). It is the same warning that is given to the same people in Heb 6:4-6. As you know, Hebrews is a letter to Christians who were mainly those who turned to Christ from Judaism. And there was always a tendency for some of them to revert to Jewish Laws, Practices & Sacrifices, or at least try to syncretize them to Christianity. If they did this, then they did despite to Christ's death & His shed Blood was worthless. This is the sin that the Hebrews writer is referring to (as in Heb 6 also) & this warning was also given strongly by Paul as he being an ex-Jew (Pharisee) was well aware of what this fusing of the two would mean. ( Gal 4:9). And this meaning is further qualified in Heb 10:29, speaking of "treading under foot the Son of God" & despising the blood of the Covenant.

So, when you see the reference to sin or falling away in Heb 10 & Heb 6, it clearly doesn't refer to the sins that we may commit & seek forgiveness for, but for horrible sins of Christ rejection (i.e. by fusing the Old Covenant with the New) & for blasphemy (i.e. attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to Satan). And I sincerely don't believe that you have fallen into this type of sin that was being done by some.

And that should be a wonderful ministry amongst prisoners, but you need to be confident in your own salvation & in the Word of God before sharing with those who are prisoners both physically & spiritually. Often they will need just a listening ear & open heart to their plight, but you also have a great message to share with them that will bring them out of their chains of darkness into Christ's glorious Light. And I pray that you will be strengthened in your mind & spirit as you stand for Christ & against Satan.

Page 1.

Thanks for those comments & your great testimony. Certainly, your love for the Lord & to be used by Him is paramount in your life & that you have been blessed with a wonderful gift from the Lord, in your wife, all show that you are in a place of God's Delight & Blessing. I didn't see your first comments as that of "reasons not to believe", but from one who was/is struggling with 'feeling' the presence & joy of the Lord which could cause you to wonder about your position in God's family.

I did endeavour to show you that the fact of our salvation (which is Christ-generated & Christ-based) is more worthy an indicator of our blessed state, than what we 'feel' in our daily Christian walk. If I had to look purely at my 'feelings', I would often see my unworthiness, my filthiness & being a candidate for rejection, if I had to account for every sin & misdemeanour in my life. That is why the blessed Spirit of God is given to us: not only for instruction & comfort, but to immediately show us our sin/grey areas in our lives so that we can do something about it. Often I find that those who have a 'feeling' of being lost or unworthy, are those who are either judging themselves too critically or entertaining sin in their lives. We are told to judge ourselves ( 1 Cor 1:31,32) but it's always in the light of revelation, whether from the Word or by the Spirit. And if there is known sin, then we need to confess, repent & turn away from it.

I did mention too earlier, about the need to correctly understand Scripture, & I fear that you are looking at passages such as Heb 10:26,27 & Heb 6:4-6 at 'face value' rather than the actual intent by the writer. So, if I could shed some light that may allay your fears. (onto Page 2.)

Chris

I know it must seem like I'm looking for reasons not to believe but the truth is I have repented and turn away from my past life even moved away to get away from the people i was hanging out with and to get away from the drugs that took over my life, i study the word daily and truly try to live my life for Christ married a wonderful Christian woman with a wonderful heart for other people and the Lord, and i thank the Lord for her daily, and i will also tell you God has answered prayers 3 times when i've been at the point of giving up i asked a simple prayer, i said Lord if your still here let me help someone today, on 3 different occasions spur of the moment when feeling really down i prayed that and all 3 times i got to help someone the 3rd time 2 people I wasn't looking they all just seemed to pop up, but then i get that feeling from Hebrews chap 10 vs 26-27 and any joy seems to fly out of my life. But i don't quit I stay in the word and repeat 1st John 1 vs 9. It just that feeling that i knowingly sinned and waited to long, and that is what i want other to learn from, stay in Christ no matter what the world offers you nothing can compare to living for him, as i said before the most miserable person in the world is a fallen Christian who can't find his way back, it's that nagging feeling that haunts me. Hopefully i will be able to join the prison ministry at my church the one thing i want to tell them is to accept Christ never take your eyes of him and take his great mercy for granted.

Page 3.

You quoted Heb chaps 6 & 12, so to clarify only these portions to you. Heb 6:4-6 speaks of those who turn their backs to God having appeared to be Christians in their midst. They showed all the signs of spirituality, joined in fellowship, received the Word, but ultimately refused God & turned their backs to Him. To these, the Writer says, that Christ can't be crucified a second time (i.e. Christ's death can't be made a mockery every time one chooses to repent for salvation) & they will find no place for repentance. BUT the writer goes on to say in verse 9: "BUT beloved, we are persuaded better things of you", inferring that those who were genuine believers in that Fellowship, wouldn't go the way of those who turn their backs to God & whose (genuine) salvation was clear & secure. So, are you in this position? From reading your comment, I see you yearning for assurance of your salvation, not as these folk in vv 4-6 who were willing to give God away for their own ends.

Heb 12:16,17: this speaks of Esau's rejection & cannot apply to you or me, as any sincere repentance for his foolish act was useless because he could never retrieve the blessing already given to Jacob by Isaac. It was a physical matter that changed the course of history. We have all foolishly refused Christ at some point, but unlike Esau's situation of rejection, we have a longing, waiting God Who wants to secure our cleansing, our new relationship with the Godhead & give us a hope & a future that can never be taken away: Jn 6:37 "All that the Father giveth me SHALL come to me; and him that cometh to me I WILL IN NO WISE cast out".

So, it is so important for you to be assured & confident in the gift of salvation given in spite of how you may feel. To continue to assure our hearts & to oppose what Satan wants to do & take away our joy, we must continue to study the Word, rightly dividing it, & focussing on the specific words that give us the assurance of His Love & our faith."( Heb 3:14).

Page 2.

Secondly, in understanding the Scriptures. You said: "The minute I wake up in the morning my mind starts telling I have no forgiveness it seems like every sin I have ever committed runs through my head laughing at me." If a person hasn't left his sins that he has repented of at the foot of the Cross for Jesus to deal with, then either he has not truly repented or he is listening to Satan who wants to afflict him with past sins to make them the present burdens. Doesn't Jesus say to come to Him with our heavy loads & He WILL give you rest? ( Mt 11:28-30). Of course, Jesus was primarily referring to the heavy loads imposed by the Jewish leaders, but it surely applies to the loads & cares we carry now that we can confidently put on Him & leave it there. Look at the many Scriptures that affirm that God will DO something: even Jn 3:16, 'if we believe on Him we SHALL NOT perish but HAVE eternal life'. Are you abiding in Christ? You say you are ("I'm living for Christ but you don't feel like that inside") but re-read 2 Tim 2:11-13 & take note of the affirmations: "we SHALL also live; we SHALL also reign; Jesus REMAINS faithful". There are so, so many Scriptures that give us complete confidence in Jesus' Work for us, His accepting us on the basis of our faith & will never deny or reject us. So, our joy is in what Christ has done for us & not how our feelings may sway us from time to time. (onto Page 3.)

Page 1.

Lost 1, you've painted a very sad picture of yourself & your struggles, & there are many who also entertain such thoughts & hold such feelings. I see two things here: you are allowing your feelings to control the facts of God's Salvation for you and you have to also correctly understand the Scriptures. We often fail in appreciating & applying biblical Truths to our lives because of these two hindrances. I should state also, that I know a dear sister in the Lord, who has over many years, been plagued with thoughts of having committed the unpardonable sin: that she has inadvertently blasphemed against the Holy Spirit & there was no forgiveness for her. No amount of counsel & Scriptural help given to her from me & others would allay her fears & she remained totally overcome. Her Christian doctor, from tests, found that there was also a chemical imbalance in her brain which didn't help her deal with worry & fear & so prescribed relevant medication, to which she is on till now. I'm not suggesting this of you or even that she should pull out of her agony only by the Lord's intervention, but I do know that she is quite free now because of medication

Having said that, I would like to strongly suggest that even though God has given us the ability to sense joy in our salvation, the Spirit's Work in our lives, & the consequence of Calvary's Work, we still have to rely on the fact of our salvation, even when our feelings about it or ourselves appear to contradict. An example would be like a child who may sometimes feel that he is not part of a family because of unfairness or discipline, but the fact remains, he is very much a part of his family aside from perceived feelings about it. So don't let your feelings control the facts from Scripture or what has taken place in your life - feelings are unreliable - God's Word is totally reliable. (onto Page 2.)

praying for you

This book of the bible scares me so much, I have read the New Testament many times over and i cannot find any example of a Christian leaving or turning away and being able to come back to Christ i can't find peace or forgiveness anywhere. The minute i wake up in the morning my mind starts telling i have no forgiveness it seems like every sin i have ever committed runs through my head laughing at me. I have repented and turned away from that like but it seems like it has been to long and there is a wall i can't get through, i know about the prodigal son but that was a parable. It seems like i am living for Christ as an example to others but inside i feel like hell is my final destination, living like this is torture the most unhappy person in the world is a person who can't find Jesus anymore and knows the truth, it says in James the prayer of a righteous man avails much, please whoever reads this and you are a Christian pray for me. Hebrews chap 6:4-6 and chap 12; 16-17 read to me and others because i have read lots about this, that we have no hope

Kinda echos to Romans 12:18

If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.

However, this scripture has nothing to do with heaven...we often wrap our minds around the word "holiness" as if it pertains to works or things we must do to gain life eternal...which aren't listed here because it doesn't refer to it, but what about the first part of the text..."Follow peace with ALL men" ?

Our God is a consuming fire speaks of his baptism of Fire that we all need to make us all clean.Which is his baptism of the H.G. n fire a spritual fire.The H.G. is spirit thus his fire is Spirit. Who shall abide th day of his coming,who shall stand when he appears for he shall be as a refiners fire and fullers soap which is baptism of the H.G. N FIRE A CLEASING FIRE a judgemental fire as jesus said the H.G.will judge the world with his baptism of fire that is gonna destroy his enemies which is our old adamic nature ( satans seat ), our carnal minds is in rank with satan,thats y he said outta of th hearts of man proceeds all manner of evil,remember he called Peter satan.Jesus said he came to bring fire on the earth ( mankind ) . He only wants to destroy mans adamic nature aka as circumcision of the flesh .I come not to destroy mens lives but to save mens lives,thats y he said he came to bring a sword impling circumcision of the flesh. Mans carnal mind is in rank with satans head. GB

All the comments and scriptures given in regards to your questions are great, consider also Romans 8:1-End (There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.) Also, Eph. 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace. We pray for peace onto her mind, body, and soul.

MADELINE: one more passage for your grand-daughter. Luke 4;16-19

From Jesus

TO Madeline: Psalm 27:10 is for your granddaughter. One of my favorites: If my father and mother forsake me, then the Lord will take me up.'

Give these scriptures to her also: Romans 8:15, Ephesians 1:5 and 1 Corinthians 12:13. She is adopted by her Heavenly Father. She is highly blessed.

She has nothing to fear as far as her salvation goes. In the human sense, a bastard is someone who has been born to parents out of wedlock. She is not at fault. The Jewish leaders even considered Jesus to be a bastard child because Mary was pregnant before the marriage became official. If you remember, Jesus told the religious leaders that "You are of your father the devil." Their response was "we be not born of fornication." You see, they considered Jesus to be an illegitimate child, or bastard. But we know better.

As far as salvation goes, your granddaughter is safe. Spiritually, we cannot be bastard children, because we are born of God's Spirit. We are legitimate children of God, and He does not see us as bastards. We are God's children. He has given us to His Son. And Jesus promised us that all whom the Father has given to Him, He will not lose one, not a single one. That's Christ's promise to us. Your granddaughter needs to know that she is safe in His powerful grip. God bless!

The the Bible meaning and modern meaning of bastard are not the same. Looking into the context will usually clear up the explanation and meaning of the term.

Zechariah Chapter 9:4 Behold, the Lord will cast her out, and he will smite her power in the sea; and she shall be devoured with fire.

5 Ashkelon shall see [it], and fear; Gaza also [shall see it], and be very sorrowful, and Ekron; for her expectation shall be ashamed; and the king shall perish from Gaza, and Ashkelon shall not be inhabited.

6 And a bastard shall dwell in Ashdod, and I will cut off the pride of the Philistines.

Goliath the giant that David faced was a Philistine and was considered a bastard.

may I suggest the booklet The Angels That Sinned: Author Clifton L. Fowler

He founded the Denver Bible college

my granddaughter which I adopted is trying to understand the meaning of bastard in the kjv her bilogical mother and father were never married. so she wants to know if she is a bastard. Then in Deuternomy 23:2 and Hebrews 12:8 she wants to understand what they mean. She has been saved and baptisted and is very much a good christian. Can you help me explain these things to her

Magdalena has given a very good summary that Moses' authorship of Genesis would have come from oral or written modes from his ancestors. And the point here for those who may want to support the theory of evolution or find some other arguable subject in Genesis, is that the Lord Jesus Christ, God's Word made flesh, spoke of Moses & did not at any time question what was written in the Torah. Jesus could have said,"Well folks, I have news for you: Genesis is not altogether accurate". However, all of the Law & the Prophets were fully accepted & widely used by Jesus in His Ministry. I would direct you to the site: Answers In Genesis > Did Moses write Genesis. It's a long piece but worth the read.

Don't forget that though the wages of sin is death salvation is the free gift of God in Christ Jesus. The righteous man shall live by faith. The Law kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Yes, we are not to sin, but don't forget if we do sin we can and should confess our sins and have an advocate to stand before the throne of judgment in Christ Jesus, our Lord and Saviour.

Moses was not yet born during the events of Genesis, so he is not named in Genesis. He was born during the time of sojourning in Egypt, and it is the Book of Exodus that deals with this part of Israel's history and Moses' personal history is part of that book. History was given orally before it was written down. Traditionally the first five books of the Bible have been attributed to Moses, first by Judaism and then by Christianity.

These are called the Books of the Law (Torah). Moses was the lawgiver (the Ten Commandments). I'm sure there's more. Maybe someone else can add on to this.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Matthew 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
Galatians 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Nichole read Luke 15 chapter the prodigal son. He was lost but came home.

My view on Hebrew 12:14 is that to follow peace all man is to reconcile whenever there is a dispute between you and others. in the due process, peaceful settlement of difference will humble and create pure heart towards other. it is single dose for two sickness. building peace every-man and pursuing and practicing holiness while on Earth. for us human, this not easy task. but by help of holy Spirit, we can