Great discussion Brethren! Salvation only through faith by grace in the gospel of the LORD JESUS CHRIST. Then our works shows our salvation. Ephesians 2:10 as well as many other verses.
GOD to shine HIS face on all who trust and believe in HIM.
When we are born again a new spiritual nature is created in us, this nature desires to obey God, not out of compulsion or fear, but out of love for God and love for what is good. We are changed, yet still have the sinful nature in us. So we battle with this nature with the help of the Holy Spirit every day. We battle it by obedience to God, which, as we practice godliness we become more and more like Jesus who's will was to live in total obedience to His Father. That should be our aim, too.
Paul told us to aim for perfection in 2 Cor.13:11, and He was the apostle who also told us that we are no longer under law and under it's curse for disobedience, but grace and told us that we are saved by faith not works. But He also spoke often, as Jesus did about living godly lives and obeying the commands of Christ and some that He, himself commanded.
Any Christian that thinks that they can live simple faith in absence of obedience to God is fooling himself, as James speaks of in his epistle. In chapter 1 21-25 he speaks of being a doer of the word. And he explains how good works follow faith in chapter 2 mentioning that with Abraham, who was justified by faith in verse 22 says that, "Do you see that faith was working together with his faith and by works was made perfect, concerning his obedience to offer Isaac. In verse 26 he said this, "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead."
The point is that true believers will live by faith because they have been made just by the work of Christ, but living by faith means living for the will of God to be manifested in our lives, as Abraham desired. Faith and obedience go hand in hand in a believer's life. One without the other is not a true Christian walk that honors God and respects the work of Christ on our behalf.
My understanding they are part of each other. Obedience is dependent on our faith that we live by with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The first Adam broke the relationship and God's dwelling place in man when he was disobedient in eating from that tree. Faith can be measured through our obedience which is the visible expression of our faith.
The Bible says that Jesus learned obedience from what He suffered and was made perfect, Heb. 8:5. Jesus gave us perfect examples of being obedient He did nothing of His own it was the Father's will not His, Luke 4:18John 5:30John 14:10. When Jesus was in the garden just before He was taken, He asked the Father if there was a different way but not His will but the Father's, Luke 22:42 but Jesus was obedient unto death.
We cannot be saved by works; we cannot earn our salvation. Is being obedient considered works? My understanding is no. Obedience is not an option it is a command, we either obey or disobey like the first Adam. If we are obedient, we are dutiful and compliant to His commands.
Our faith, Heb.1:1 by the grace of God that we fully trust Him regardless of what we may face, not with our logic but with His, and the promises God has given us, our hope is not in this world but the eternal one that our hope is in, that with patience we wait and watch for to come.
In my opinion faith is better than obedience , the reason being is that : none of us is ever perfectly obedient , we all sin . If we have faith , in God and in his love and mercy towards us , then we can be forgiven for our disobedience / sin . If we don't have faith in God and in Jesus then we can't really call ourselves Christians can we ? Hopefully , our faith will lead us into obedience .
James 2:8 and :12 both the royal law and the law of liberty are the same law, this refers unto the Law of God, also known as the Moral Law. For the Christian, this law was written in the heart of every believer on the day of salvation as part of all unconditional promises, which is also known as the new covenant. The significance of this law, is that it alone has the power to save our soul, after our spirit was saved by faith without works. James 1:21 Meaning if we would through meekness obey this engrafted word that was written in our hearts on the day of salvation, then can we now obtain the salvation of our soul.
Thank You Lord for all the brethren and those who are seeking Your truth on this forum. I've enjoyed the discussions and I pray that the truth many are searching for will be received in the mighty name of CHRIST.
James 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
"I need Thee every hour most gracious LORD, No tender voice like Thine can peace afford.
I need Thee, O I Thee every hour I need Thee. O bless me now, my Savior I come to Thee."
Author(refrain): Robert Lowry(1872); Author:Annie S. Hawks (1872) Tune: NEED (Lowry)
You weren't specific about what verse from James. Keep in mind James is written to the 12 tribes of Israel. Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. The bible does say that God does hate certain sins above others.
Colossians 1:27 ..... this mystery ....Christ in you .......
Philippians 2:13 For it is God (Christ in you) that worketh IN YOU (you are Christ's body, but he is the LIFE) both TO WILL and TO DO his good pleasure.
John 14:6 ....I AM the LIFE .......
Since it's his life, it's his faith, since it's his faith, it's his works.
Faith without works is dead.
But you have both, being you are THE BODY of Christ.
My understanding is that all sins are not the same. An example would be where Jesus makes a distinction between blasphemy against the Holy Ghost and other sins.
Matthew 12:31
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
But one sin no matter how great or how small, leaves us guilty of breaking God's holy law and therefore all of us have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. So we are all reliant on the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins.
Revelations 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. Jesus told all the churches that he knew their works. If God only saw the righteousness of Christ he could not correct us. 1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. I believe that cleansing us from all sin is actual and covering us from sin implies that it is only imaginary. Our faith is counted(valued) for(as)righteousness. When we disobey God it is because our lack of faith. 1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. I agree that we need to walk in truth.
Stealing a piece of bubble gum is not the same as murder: Even though through the blood of CHRIST we are no longer under the law, it was our school master to know right from wrong. We still do not commit murder, steal etc. There were different levels of crime and different levels of penance. You were to send a murder to GOD (capital punishment) if he murdered, he therefore wasn't able to be forgiven in the flesh. ( Numbers 35:30) There is also 1 unforgivable; Luke 12:10. The whole of Deuteronomy gives the degrees of such from a turtle dove to a bullock to appease for different levels. Just because we are no longer under the law doesn't mean we can commit them. There are abominable sins, civil sins, health sins, capital sins etc. GOD is judge and knows the heart and why, when, where a crime was committed and cannot be hidden. He knows if there was a chemical inbalance or if a person is just pure evil. Gods will be done!
There are different degrees of sin, but all sin still needs covered by the blood. For without the shedding of (His Blood) there is no forgiveness of sin.
Sins of the flesh are greater than sins of the body for the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. If you are married, would your spouse be more forgiving if you look at another person in lust or if you actually committed adultery.
Either way the point is that sin leads to darkness and blind's a person vision. For the unbeliever sin can separate you from receiving God's forgiveness for God shall not always strive with man.
Shrek said it best to donkey. People are like onions, they have layers (of darkness). Only the Word (Christ) can penetrate thru the layers - nothing else. John 8:36 - If He sets you free - you are free indeed.
For the believer nothing even sin shall separate you from the love of God in Christ, no powers in this age or the age to come. But a person will have many troubles if they magnify sin over the magnification of God. Philippians 4:5
Do not be overcome with the things of this world be overcome with Christ! His mercy, His grace are endless. Be strong in the Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Let us be conscious and deliberate in what we are pursuing! We are called to be Savior conscious! Be blessed!
You have spoken well here on this topic. Thanks for your insightful points. It stirs my heart to be more sensitive to the needs before me. I tend to ask a person who asks me for money if they are hungry and to accompany me into a restaurant and choose their meal or ask what they would like and go and buy it for them. That way, I know that they have food and drink for that day (what their body really needs).
Dgjot , I could never hate you , you are my brother in Christ , we all get a bit rattled about the things that are going on in this world , that's a good sign ! So many people in life walk through this world not noticing any of the unfairness and injustices that take place on a daily basis , they don't notice because they don't care . I do get where you are coming from , being a Christian means being aware of what is expected of us by our God and our Saviour , we need to be doing right in their eyes , it's not about who we are being kind to , it's about the fact that we are doing what we know is the right thing to do regardless if our act is appreciated by this world , that doesn't matter , what matters is keeping our hearts and minds attuned to Christ and the example that he set us . Do right by him , it doesn't matter what anyone thinks about us , it only matters that we do what we know is the right thing to do in God's eyes . Much love to you in Christ .
When it comes to Mary pouring oil on Jesus's head , I wanted you to take notice of Judas's attitude , that passage isn't just there to tell us about the woman and what she did , it's also there to tell us about Jesus's reaction to her act and the reaction of Judas and what he did immediately afterwards . Read it all carefully . That passage gives us an insight into Judas's mind set , his way of thinking , is that our way of thinking ? Mine ? Yours ? Should any Christian take the same attitude as Judas ? I'm not going to do any more with this conversation , if you have read the Bible you should know what is expected of you in this world , you should have an understanding of the heart and mind of Christ and how it should be working in us every day . I struggle too at times , being a good person doesn't always come naturally to me , it's when I'm struggling that I let Christ take over me and through him I can do better .
Have I ever been Homeless? No. I worked to put a roof over my own head. Many times I took in homeless, jobless friends and supported them until they could get on their own feet. I got nothing out of it except my bank account emptied and my house ruined. Then they left and I never saw them again. Where were they all the times I went hungry or couldn't pay my bills or was sick??? (crickets)
You're correct, some people can't be helped or simply do not want it.
My comment was based on the perspective of providing love and charity TO the person/people, refarfless. Those in need, need help. Providing them with a warm meal on a cold winter day may not bring them to God but then again, the simple charitable and loving act of providing them with a warm meal on a cold winters day is the work/help that begins to foster a relationship, sometimes, in which we may be able to help them further, spiritually. To the point of accepting Christ.
It's pretty easy, at times, to help a believer isn't it. But not so easy to help someone who doesn't want to be helped/saved.
Jesus died for "helping" those people didn't he? Or did he just come for the saved?
Doing God's work isn't easy and of course the atheists or others don't even want to hear it. Jesus never quit..
GOD to shine HIS face on all who trust and believe in HIM.
January 16, 2024
Very well stated Gigi.
I agree with S. Spencer,
When we are born again a new spiritual nature is created in us, this nature desires to obey God, not out of compulsion or fear, but out of love for God and love for what is good. We are changed, yet still have the sinful nature in us. So we battle with this nature with the help of the Holy Spirit every day. We battle it by obedience to God, which, as we practice godliness we become more and more like Jesus who's will was to live in total obedience to His Father. That should be our aim, too.
Paul told us to aim for perfection in 2 Cor.13:11, and He was the apostle who also told us that we are no longer under law and under it's curse for disobedience, but grace and told us that we are saved by faith not works. But He also spoke often, as Jesus did about living godly lives and obeying the commands of Christ and some that He, himself commanded.
Any Christian that thinks that they can live simple faith in absence of obedience to God is fooling himself, as James speaks of in his epistle. In chapter 1 21-25 he speaks of being a doer of the word. And he explains how good works follow faith in chapter 2 mentioning that with Abraham, who was justified by faith in verse 22 says that, "Do you see that faith was working together with his faith and by works was made perfect, concerning his obedience to offer Isaac. In verse 26 he said this, "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead."
The point is that true believers will live by faith because they have been made just by the work of Christ, but living by faith means living for the will of God to be manifested in our lives, as Abraham desired. Faith and obedience go hand in hand in a believer's life. One without the other is not a true Christian walk that honors God and respects the work of Christ on our behalf.
I agree with what others have shared.
I would say the evidence of faith will result in obedience.
That obedience is not always resisting evil or wrong doing.
It's also not just you complying to a command. IT'S CHANGE!
True faith causes change that results in Obedience.
"Your heart" is obeying all of scripture that APPLIES TO YOU.
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Philippians 2:13.
I hope this helps.
God bless.
My understanding they are part of each other. Obedience is dependent on our faith that we live by with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The first Adam broke the relationship and God's dwelling place in man when he was disobedient in eating from that tree. Faith can be measured through our obedience which is the visible expression of our faith.
The Bible says that Jesus learned obedience from what He suffered and was made perfect, Heb. 8:5. Jesus gave us perfect examples of being obedient He did nothing of His own it was the Father's will not His, Luke 4:18 John 5:30 John 14:10. When Jesus was in the garden just before He was taken, He asked the Father if there was a different way but not His will but the Father's, Luke 22:42 but Jesus was obedient unto death.
We cannot be saved by works; we cannot earn our salvation. Is being obedient considered works? My understanding is no. Obedience is not an option it is a command, we either obey or disobey like the first Adam. If we are obedient, we are dutiful and compliant to His commands.
Our faith, Heb.1:1 by the grace of God that we fully trust Him regardless of what we may face, not with our logic but with His, and the promises God has given us, our hope is not in this world but the eternal one that our hope is in, that with patience we wait and watch for to come.
May others word it better to help your study.
God bless,
RLW
James 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
"I need Thee every hour most gracious LORD, No tender voice like Thine can peace afford.
I need Thee, O I Thee every hour I need Thee. O bless me now, my Savior I come to Thee."
Author(refrain): Robert Lowry(1872); Author:Annie S. Hawks (1872) Tune: NEED (Lowry)
Praise the LORD.
July 14, 2022 Praying for our Nations leaders.
You said when we disobey God it is lack of faith.
When we disobey God it LACK of KNOWLEDGE.
You died on the cross with Christ.
Colossians 1:27 ..... this mystery ....Christ in you .......
Philippians 2:13 For it is God (Christ in you) that worketh IN YOU (you are Christ's body, but he is the LIFE) both TO WILL and TO DO his good pleasure.
John 14:6 ....I AM the LIFE .......
Since it's his life, it's his faith, since it's his faith, it's his works.
Faith without works is dead.
But you have both, being you are THE BODY of Christ.
Truth will set you free.
God bless YOU!
Matthew 12:31
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
But one sin no matter how great or how small, leaves us guilty of breaking God's holy law and therefore all of us have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. So we are all reliant on the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins.
There are different degrees of sin, but all sin still needs covered by the blood. For without the shedding of (His Blood) there is no forgiveness of sin.
Sins of the flesh are greater than sins of the body for the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. If you are married, would your spouse be more forgiving if you look at another person in lust or if you actually committed adultery.
Either way the point is that sin leads to darkness and blind's a person vision. For the unbeliever sin can separate you from receiving God's forgiveness for God shall not always strive with man.
Shrek said it best to donkey. People are like onions, they have layers (of darkness). Only the Word (Christ) can penetrate thru the layers - nothing else. John 8:36 - If He sets you free - you are free indeed.
For the believer nothing even sin shall separate you from the love of God in Christ, no powers in this age or the age to come. But a person will have many troubles if they magnify sin over the magnification of God. Philippians 4:5
Do not be overcome with the things of this world be overcome with Christ! His mercy, His grace are endless. Be strong in the Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Let us be conscious and deliberate in what we are pursuing! We are called to be Savior conscious! Be blessed!
Praise God and to Him be the Glory!
Romans 1:18 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;"
James 2:9-12 "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."
You have spoken well here on this topic. Thanks for your insightful points. It stirs my heart to be more sensitive to the needs before me. I tend to ask a person who asks me for money if they are hungry and to accompany me into a restaurant and choose their meal or ask what they would like and go and buy it for them. That way, I know that they have food and drink for that day (what their body really needs).
Philippians 2:13 For it is God (the only life) that worketh in you (his body) both TO WILL and TO DO his good pleasure.
God Bless YOU!
I'm sorry I offended you too. I know you're right. We should give and expect nothing in return. I'm just a bitter old cat-herder. Don't mind me.
My comment was based on the perspective of providing love and charity TO the person/people, refarfless. Those in need, need help. Providing them with a warm meal on a cold winter day may not bring them to God but then again, the simple charitable and loving act of providing them with a warm meal on a cold winters day is the work/help that begins to foster a relationship, sometimes, in which we may be able to help them further, spiritually. To the point of accepting Christ.
It's pretty easy, at times, to help a believer isn't it. But not so easy to help someone who doesn't want to be helped/saved.
Jesus died for "helping" those people didn't he? Or did he just come for the saved?
Doing God's work isn't easy and of course the atheists or others don't even want to hear it. Jesus never quit..