John Chapter 1 Discussion Page 37

Thank for your comment Will, however my concern was not so much about prejudice or hate, as evidence. After all, who was this fourth gospel writer and why did he dislike Jews so much? Did it elude him completely that Jesus himself was a Jew and if so what does that tell us about the reliability of this particular account? With regard to it being the word of God, passed down via fallible men or otherwise, I would have thought that he at least would be sufficiently well resourced to ensure that this kind of elementary blunder didn't happen in his name! Be that as it may, one thing I do disagree with you about is the role of mistranslation in scripture. What makes the NT (the OT also to a lesser extent) so dubious is the deliberate manipulation of texts via selectivity, interpolation and ordering, rather than random honest mistakes of which I'm sure there are many.

David, regarding the anti-semitism, I think that these scriptures were written by men, and so there may be hatred/prejudice within them. It is the 'word of God', passed down by men. We all have our imperfections/shortcomings, no? I speak a few languages and I believe that, among men, something is always lost in translation. See the story of Babel.

Quote "So Jesus is the Son, not God himself. Jesus said “The Son is not greater than the Father” which doesn’t support the Trinitarian belief that they are the same and equal. In verse 14, John calls Jesus the only begotten. Begotten is a term used in the Bible when referring to offspring, something or someone created. God has no beginning or a creator so Jesus having been created cannot be God. He is the only begotten because he was Gods first direct creation and all other things God made through Jesus."

A very good point actually. I believe the exact quote from the KJV to be :-

John 14
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Certainly this is one of the defences that Arius used to defend himself against his Trinitarian persecutors in the 4th Century.

One thing that puzzles me about John though, is it's anti-Semitic tone in chapters 18 and 19. Why are there so many hostile and frankly impertinent references to 'the Jews'? I count 16 altogether!

In the begining was the word the word is Jesus and the word is God Our God is a spirital God and He can take on any form that He desires too or be any where He wants tooOr dwell in anyone He chosees too

Verses to prove that Jesus Christ is true God. Tito 2:13 & 1 Jh. 5:20. Where is your verses in the bible that Jesus was created?.

I would like to offer some other bible translations of this scripture. I'm very curious why these translations were not listed.

1808: "and the word was a god." The New Testament in an Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome's New Translation: With a Corrected Text.
1864: "and a god was the word." The Emphatic Diaglott, interlinear reading, by Benjamin Wilson.
1928: "and the Word was a divine being." La Bible du Centenaire, L'Evangile selon Jean, by Maurice Goguel.
1935: "and the Word was divine." The Bible—An American Translation, by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed.
1946: "and of a divine kind was the Word." Das Neue Testament, by Ludwig Thimme.
1950: "and the Word was a god." New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures.
1958: "and the Word was a God." The New Testament, by James L. Tomanek.
1975: "and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word." Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Siegfried Schulz.
1978: "and godlike kind was the Logos." Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Johannes Schneider.

The true meaning of this scripture is getting "lost in translation" as many have brought out. John clears up this debate when he summarizes the main idea of his book in John 20:31 which says “But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”

So Jesus is the Son, not God himself. Jesus said “The Son is not greater than the Father” which doesn’t support the Trinitarian belief that they are the same and equal. In verse 14, John calls Jesus the only begotten. Begotten is a term used in the Bible when referring to offspring, something or someone created. God has no beginning or a creator so Jesus having been created cannot be God. He is the only begotten because he was Gods first direct creation and all other things God made through Jesus.

forgot to mention in previous comment Elomhim does not show that god is three but that he is the ONLY true god - one god - the plural form because of plural of majesty as stated in prev comment. John 8:32 - Psalm 83:18

as for the Elohim being plural @ (h. watson )such a thing is called plural of majesty used in hebrew - plural title showing respect or position of authority - as for john 1:1 indefinite article left out to favor trinity.

I love the Bible online.I want information on what God said about being or have ill against your brother or sisters

The teaching is biblical but incomplete. Yes, Jesus claimed that his Father is greater that him before he died. Because, what he speak is came from his Father Jh. 14:10. But after he is risen there powers is equal. Supporting verses: Jh. 17:10-11 and Philip. 2 : 9 -11. Do you that the new name of our Heavenly Father is the Lord Jesus Christ based in the bible.

the light, i believe is the word of god and the darkness is our own despair. we know the word of god, we hear it and we choose to look the other way. but the light is still their and burning brightly. when we seek that light we finally realize that it has never went out. instead we were only looking the other way

John's is a wonderful gospel. The message is light and life and redemption and divine grace. You have everything in the Apostles creed in this gospel. Everything you need to be Christian. If you refuse to believe as some indicated THEN so it is. Christianity is, after all, a matter of faith. Jesus said **that** so often: your faith saves you. All of the gospels are moving, but this one has always been my favorite.

The Words that I speak unto you , they are spirit,and they are life. John 6:63
Give ear, O ye heavens,and I will speak;(spiritual leaders)and hear,O earth,(worldly people)the Words of my mouth. My doctrine(teaching) shall drop as the rain,my speech shall distil(purify) as dew,as the small rain upon the tender herb,and as the showers upon the grass: Deuteronomy 32:1,2
For the Lord giveth wisdom:out of his mouth cometh Knowledge and understanding. Proverbs 2:6
God:judge or idol.
His (Jesus) name is called the Word of God.
Revelation 19:13
The Word = Jesus (the Word was made flesh)will judge our hearts.
....the Words that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. John 12:48
The idols (gods)of the heathen are silver and gold, the work of men's hand's. Psalm 135:14,18.
Our life is to be patterned after our Lord Jesus Christ and not after the traditions of men or men. And not after our own hearts desires.
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exodus 20:1-6 ( read )

The doctrine of Three Person / Trinity is one God and the other doctrine God is only one is no questioned. The question will enter this. The son brought/delivered by mother's Mary. The question is: It is God or it is a man. My answer is a man based in the bible.

there are just two kinds of christians ones whom reapeat like parrots whaever they hear from men and those whom learn directly from the Biblia JESUS IS GOD evething was made by HIM and nothing with out HIM if you have problem with it if because you're not a disciple of the BIBLE but of men.

FYI!!!

HOLY TRINITY - A Catholic BELIEF/DOCTRINE which means 3 GOD's (FATHER,SON,HOLY SPIRIT) having exactly the same/equal nature or being or power... Jesus claim that he's Father is greater than Him... so how come this teachings are biblical... The bible teaches that there is a God above all (Father)and His Son Christ Jesus (Wisdom/Word) and the Holy Ghost (the Comforter- Jn 14:26)...They are all GOD's but they are not equal to each other... ALWAYS remember let us be Biblical with regard to our faith....(www.mcgi.org)

Hi Don!!!

With regard to your question, in Isaiah 9:6, Jesus was also called Father ( Jn. 21:5 )...But it does'nt mean that he is also the Almighty Father, Like Jesus said, that His Father is greater than him... The bible also tells that Paul was also called father ( I Cor. 4:15 )... Don If you want to know more about Jesus you can visit my Brother blog www.esoriano.wordpress//www.mcgi.org site were in you can ask live questions with regard to bible scripture... GOD Bless!!!!

God is spirit, which may not have dimentions, shape, or assigned numbers. He might have numerous aspects since He is overall and everywhere. The word that became flesh might be described as the speaking, outreaching, creating aspect of God. Someday, we shall know as we are known. He that has the Son has life ( 1 Jn. 5:12).

well I don't have the guy's name who tried to deny the trinity of GOD because he doesn't found that word in the Bible , any way there is one verse the you should read and if you believe believe it , if you reject reject it. 1John 5:7

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Thanks for the input Kaanib and "Just FYI"...I am hoping you can you help me out with this passage from 1 Timothy 3:16 -- "God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

and the one from Isaiah 9:6 -- "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

I am genuinely interested in your take on these passages in regards to our present conversation.

There is no evidence the Apostles of Jesus ever heard of a Trinity. The Bible does not teach the doctrine of the Trinity. Neither the word Trinity itself, nor such language as one in three, three in one, one essence or substance or three persons, is biblical language.

The language of the doctrine is the language of the ancient Church, taken not from the Bible but from classical Greek philosophy.


Long before the founding of Christianity the idea of a triune god or a god-in-three persons was a common belief in ancient religions. Although many of these religions had many minor deities, they distinctly acknowledged that there was one supreme God who consisted of three persons or essences. The Babylonians used an equilateral triangle to represent this three-in-one god. The Greek triad was composed of Zeus, Athena and Apollo. These three were said by the pagans to 'agree in one.' One of the largest pagan temples built by the Romans was constructed at Ballbek (situated in present day Lebanon) to their Trinity of Jupiter, Mercury and Venus. In Babylon the planet Venus was revered as special and was worshipped as a Trinity consisting of Venus, the moon and the sun. This triad became the Babylonian holy Trinity in the fourteenth century before Christ.


Although other religions for thousands of years before Christ was born worshipped a triune god, the Trinity was not a part of Christian dogma and formal documents of the first three centuries after Christ. That there was no formal, established doctrine of the Trinity until the fourth century is a fully documented historical fact. Clearly, historians of church dogma and systematic theologians agree that the idea of a Christian Trinity was not a part of the first century church. The twelve apostles never subscribed to it or received revelation about it.


So how then did a Trinitarian doctrine come about? It gradually evolved and gained momentum in late first, second and third centuries as pagans, who had converted to Christianity, brought to Christianity some of their pagan beliefs and practices.


The modern belief in the trinity originated in the 4th century at the Council of Nicaea in approximately 325 C.E. King Constantine, the Roman Emperor and an adherent to paganism, presided over the Council. Its main purpose was to unite the Roman Empire by achieving agreement on Christian doctrine. This would promote a universal consolidation within the church.


As the council proceeded, there were two distinct sides, which the Archdeacon Athanasius of Alexandria, Egypt upheld regarding the trinity. Arius fought for the opposition; but after long weeks of debate, the admitted pagan, Pontifex Maximus Constantine, ruled in favor of the Trinitarian teaching of Athanasius, the Egyptian. Egypt, one of the oldest civilizations in the world, had long before adopted the pagan belief of the trinity. One of the most famous Egyptian trinities was that of Horus, Isis, and Seb (HIS), a trinity that consisted of father, mother, and son, and a concept that also traces back to Babylonian ancestry.


History teaches that much later, after instituting a mandatory belief in the trinity, Constantine tried to be more tender and merciful with the decision, but it was too late. The Nicene Creed (also known as the Athenasian Creed) had taken hold. All who did not believe in the trinity doctrine were persecuted and killed. Every available instrument of torture was used on the nonbeliever. The Nicene Creed has since been amended, but it is still read today in many of the Protestant and Catholic churches. Those churches that associate themselves with the World Council of Churches now require belief in the trinity doctrine.


Does the Bible Support the Idea of the Trinity?


While the word Trinity is not found in the Bible, is the concept of the Trinity taught clearly in it?


The Encyclopedia of Religion Vol. 15 1987 admits: ‘Theologians today are in agreement that the Hebrew Bible does not contain a doctrine of the Trinity.’


The New Catholic Encyclopedia: ‘The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not taught in the Old Testament.’


The Encyclopedia of Religion says: ‘Theologians agree that the New Testament also does not contain an explicit doctrine of the Trinity.’


The Encyclopedia Britannica 1976 observes: Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament.’


Protestant theologian Karl Barth (as quoted in The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology 1976) similarly states: ‘The New Testament does not contain the developed doctrine of the Trinity. The Bible lacks the express declaration the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are of equal essence.’


It's kind of hard to put so much faith in a church's doctrine when the church itself doesn't even believe it. It makes you think.

Hi Don,
God is not OMNI present and that belief is not biblical. Literally and Spiritually, GOD's prensence will not be at all places like BEERHOUSE'S, NIGHT CLUB'S, place's of war/choas and ect... What that Bible say's that God's presence stands infront of 2 or more people who speaket in His name, and He also dwelt into those Person's heart who has faith in HIM and HIS SON's JESUS....

woow don if you don't know wisdown is an atribute of a person but not a person itself , any way i'm agree with you that JESUS have the fully wisdown of GOD because HE IS GOD but also he is submit to his FATHER Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

I have learned that to try and put God into the box of what we can understand, person-hood in this case, is to place limits on Him. God has no limits. He is Omnipresent, Omniscient, and Omnipotent - and 'Omni' means ALL. God is ALL; the Great I AM. To me, that means he has no limits; no container (human or otherwise) can hold him in one place at one time. He is the Father, the Son, AND the Holy Spirit ALL at the same time and everywhere at the same time, which is a concept that we are not fully able to understand. ( Prov 3:5 Trust in the Lord with ALL thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.) It sure is awesome to contemplate His All-ness through! Thanks for this discussion!!

Who is JESUS??? He the Son of GOD or the bible signify the Wisdom of God...in the Book of Proverbs 8:22 is not Christ. He cited 1 Corinthians 1:30 and hastily concluded that Christ is the wisdom for salvation and redemption only, and not the Wisdom instrumental in the creation of every existing thing. Here were his allegations:
A careful look at the above cited verses will reveal to us the following facts —

1. The Wisdom of God is a mystery

2. The hidden Wisdom ordained by God was before the world

3. It was not known by the princes of this world

Due to these, they crucified the Lord of Glory.

The Wisdom of God being mentioned by Paul here is the Wisdom in a mystery, the hidden Wisdom, which is the Lord of Glory. Remember that this Wisdom was ordained by God before the World.
Who is the Lord of Glory?
( James 2:1) “My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.”

It is crystal clear, therefore, that the Wisdom mentioned by Paul who existed and was ordained by God before the world is the Lord Jesus Christ — The Lord of Glory.

It this the same Wisdom being mentioned in the Book of Proverbs?

( 1 Corinthians 1:24) “But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.”

The Apostle Paul said, “The Wisdom of God.” A little knowledge in grammar will teach us know that there is no other Wisdom of God because he used the definite article ‘the.’ However, Christ is the Wisdom of God to those who are called. No wonder, Tumbok does not understand because he was not called. God calls people into the Church of God and not in any church founded by man.

( 1 Corinthians 1:1-2) “Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours…”

It is in the Church of God that God calls people which He considers worthy of serving Him. If there are those who do not consider Christ as ‘the’ Wisdom of God, they are the enemies of Christ.

( 1 Corinthians 1:23-24) “But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.”

Christ is not the Wisdom of God to those who were not called into the Church of God, but a ‘stumbling block’ and foolishness. Certainly, He is the same Wisdom being mentioned in Proverbs 8:22 —

( Proverbs 8:22) “The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.”

The word ‘possessed’ being used by the Wisdom (referring to Christ) is very much apparent in the declaration of John.

( John 1:18) “No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”

The Wisdom was possessed by the Father in the beginning of His ways, before His works of old. The succeeding verses, the 23rd and the 24th, prove that He was begotten before anything was made.

( Proverbs 8:23-24) “I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.”

No other being in the universe was brought forth or begotten of the Father other than the only begotten Son, which was in the beginning, the Wisdom in the bosom of the Father.

( Hebrews 1:5) “For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?”

He is also the Son mentioned in the Book of Proverbs, which was with the Father in the creation of everything.

( Proverbs 30:4) “Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son’s name, if thou canst tell?”

He is the person to whom God was speaking, in the creation of man.

( Genesis 1:26) “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.”

Others conclude (which were always erroneous) that God was speaking to angels; but this is not so. God was speaking to someone who has the same image as He has, and there is no other person in the universe or beyond it, that has the exact image of God other than the Son.

( Hebrews 1:1-3) “God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high…”

Note that by the Son he made the worlds. The Son is the express image of His person. These reasonings of Saint Paul jive with the preaching of John in his gospel.

( John 1:1-3) “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.”

To sum up, that Jesus Christ really is the Wisdom of God being mentioned in the Book of Proverbs, let us look at the verses a second time.

( Proverbs 8:22-30) “The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him…”

I have highlighted in red words and phrases that speak of the time element proving that the Wisdom, that is the Son, pre-existed before He was born of Mary in the form of a man. There is no other Wisdom of God being mentioned in the Bible, other than the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ; the Lord of Glory, the wisdom that God used in the creation of everything that exists.

( Colossians 2:2-3) “That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.”

All treasures of wisdom and knowledge are in Christ. The Apostle Paul has known this so he wrote —

( Colossians 1:15-17) “Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.”

How can something that does not exist be made an instrument in the creation of everything that exists? That is impossible!

( John 1:1-3) “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.”

The Son was there in the Creation of everything! Without Him was not anything made that was made!

JESUS WAS NOT JUST SIMPLY GOD IN THE FLESH ???????? I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN. BUT TO US AS CHRISTIANS THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD AND THAT GOD MANIFESTED HIM SELF IN FLESH , BUT WHEN THE BIBLE CALL JESUS THE WORD OF GOD IT IS SIMBOLIC AS IN OTHER PART HE HAS BEEN CALL THE LAMB OR THE LION BECAUSE JESUS IS NOT LITERALLY WORD CAN YOU ANDERSTAND THAT ?? HE IS THE PERSON WHO HAS THE POWERFULL WORD OF GOD IN HIS MOUTH Hebrews 1:3
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and """ upholding all things by the word of his power """ ; when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high

KEY WORDS; BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER!!!

JESUS WAS NOT JUST SIMPLY GOD IN THE FLESH. JESUS WAS THE WORD OF GOD, MADE FLESH... AS IT STATES,' AND THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH... IF JESUS IS GOD WHO DID HE PRAY TO? AND WHEN GOD SAID LET US MAKE MAN WHO WAS HE TALKING TO?

john was inspired to write what the hollyghost told him to. GOD WAS SIMPLY JESUS IN THE FLESH. read 1 timothy 3;16. there,s only one GOD. jesus was on this earth long before he was born as a man child. the bible says the angel of the lord appeared, not like some place,s where it says an angel of the lord appeared. let,s face it there,s only one GOD. here o isreal the lord our god is one lord.god told moses to tell the egyptions that i am sent him. jesus said he was i am, sounds like same person or GOD to me. he was be fore abraham, but around 30 year,s old, that,s strange. get a grip there,s only one.