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I know the two resurrection you speak of, most believe what you believe.
The word speaks of Christ resurrection, then the resurrection of those who never believe that were raised with Christ.
Colossians 3:1 ... if ye be RISEN with Christ ....
Ephesians 2:6 .... and hath RAISED US us up together ....
Isaiah 26:19 .... TOGETHER with my dead body shall they ARISE ....
Hosea 6:2 ..... in the third day he will raise US UP .......
The saints that arose with Christ, were the Old Testament saints that had died in faith, but had never receive their promise of eternal life.
Those: in Revelation under the alter clothed in white are the Old saints awaiting their promise, eternal life, by their resurrection of Christ.
These are the 144,000 raised with Christ, the firstfruits of the resurrection.
Hebrews 11:39 And these all, havlng obtained a good report through faith, received not the PROMISE (eternal life).
Hebrews 11:40 Christ having provided some BETTER THING FOR US (never having to die and wait in the grave), that they WITHOUT US should not be made PERFECT (by our resurrection as one).
Hebrews 5:9 ...and having been made perfect .... by our resurrection as one ....
Philippians 3:15 Let us therefore who be perfect (by our resurrection as one), be thus minded: and if in any thing you be otherwise mined, God shall reveal even this to you.
Hi Jordyn, the two resurrections that I was referring to are :
1. the resurrection of the dead at the second coming of Jesus Christ.
2. And, then 1000 years later, the resurrection of the wicked to receive their judgement.
I was not referring to the resurrection of our LORD which, in my opinion, is a special and separate deal. By the way, it's so interesting because after Christ rose, some of the dead were resurrected and seen in Jerusalem. The Bible says Jesus took captives in his train when he returned to Heaven. That's exciting. I wish it would've been me in the train. Oh well. I'll be patient. :)
The first RESURRECTION .... is the resurrection of Christ .... and those that come to the truth of the gospel THAT YOU were joint heirs of that resurrection, and made ONE, were married to Christ, were baptised in HIS NAME.
The whole Bible is the promise of God to destroy death.
The promise has always been ETERNAL LIFE.
The wages of SIN (unbelief) has always been DEATH.
All this was accomplished when Christ was resurrected.
When you come to truth that YOU and Christ were resurrected TOGETHER, then you will never die again.
That is the FIRST DEATH and the FIRST RESURRECTION.
Luke 20:36 Neither can they (YOU) die anymore, for they (YOU) are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, BEING the children of THE RESURRECTION.
The RIGHTEOUS dead are raised at the FIRST resurrection to eternal life. The UNRIGHTEOUSNESS dead are raised at the SECOND resurrection. They will face the judgement seat of Christ and then they will die eternally. Their soul will die.
Below, verse 24 emphasizes that 'once saved, always saved' is a dangerous lie. How many children were saved in Sunday school and assume, as adults ,they are saved. But, they don't give one thought to God as an adult and they do not pursue sanctification in their life. Anyway, the following scripture is from Ezekiel:
"The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
But, if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes and do that which is right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? Saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
But when the righteous turn away from his righteousness, and committed iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All his righteousness that he has done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he has trespassed, and in his sin that he has sinned, in them shall he die." Ezekiel 18:20-24
Yes , scripture states that salvation can be lost.
See Ezekiel 18:21-32.
However, the lost won't be eternally conscious in hell. God says they will surely die. Cease to exist. It's too hard to explain in a couple paragraphs. But, eternal life is only the reward of the righteous.
Also, when people die, they fall asleep until judgement day. We have an object lesson in our nightly sleep. Suddenly, it's morning. The idea of grandma watching over us from heaven is a satanic ploy. It makes room for seances, praying to dead saints, spiritism. Any dead relative appearing to a living relative is a demon impersonating the relative.
The problem with the question of eternal security lies in having NO KNOWLEDGE of God's WORD.
If one deeply studies the PROPHECIES, one will see that at some point in the ages to come all the tribes of Israel are going to once again exit.
BUT, in this AGE he is ONLY calling out the PREISTHOOD, the house of David, the kind of firstfruits as is the tribe of Judah, lawgivers that will rule and reign and serve him when he resurrects all the DEAD back to there bodies of flesh and blood.
If one studies under the spirit of truth, you find these prophecies in the blessings of Israel to his twelve sons, from the beginning the tribe of Judah was CHOSEN to be God's lawgiver. The blessing on the remaining tribes will be fulfilled after all the lawgivers are put in place.
Isaiah, Ezekiel, Zachariah, and Revelation all prophesy ONLY a PART will be save in this age, one third (probably symbolic) since other prophecies seem to say ONE TENTH, the tithe to God, those without blemish being sacrificed with Christ on HIS CROSS.
You find this in the blessings of Jacob and Esau.
Hebrews 11:20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau CONCERNING THINGS TO COME.
There are TWO DEATHS, TWO RESURRECTION and TWO JUDGEMENTS,
The first death and resurrection is those SAVED in this AGE, the ones Christ CAUSES TO BELIEVE in this AGE, they are being judged by the words of God.
1 Timothy 4:10 ... who is the SAVIOUR of ALL MEN (not necessarily in this AGE), especially THOSE (in this AGE) that BELIEVE.
Isaiah 6:13 But yet in it (the land) shall be a tenth, and it (the tenth) shall be eaten (same as Christ is eaten, eat the words and digest them) as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance (CHRIST) IS IN THEM, when they cast their leaves (administer judgement), so the HOLY SEED shall be the substance thereof.
Obadiah 1:21 And SAVIOURS (those conformed to the image of Christ) SHALL COME upon Mt, Zion to JUDGE the house of ESAU
Thanks for your reply. While I agree that we should focus on winning souls, I also believe that it is crucial for the church to teach the sound doctrine as Paul commanded to Timothy.
Besides, this is the "discussion" section, not the comment section. Everyone is welcome to express their views and opinions about a specific verse.
I am an advocate for winning souls to Christ, and I have been doing so for the past 14 years. Let's keep the momentum and win more souls for the Kingdom.
John 15:2: "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit."
I heard so many people saying that salvation cannot be lost. I think there is a necessity to define what "lost" means. Does it mean losing the communion with the Lord on this earth? Or does it mean going to hell after death? In my argument, I have chosen the latter definition, losing salvation = going to hell after death. If one finishes up not making it to heaven, it means the person has lost his salvation because the goal of salvation is to live where Jesus is ( John 14:3)
1. Who are the branches Jesus spoke about? The believers, here Jesus was not talking about non-believers (because they are not "branches").
2. Two types of branches: Branches that abide in Jesus, and branches that do not abide in Him, meaning believers who abide in Jesus, and believers who do not. Those who abide bear good fruit, but those who do not abide bear no fruit.
3. Note that there is a difference between accepting Jesus and abiding in Him. Some people accept Jesus but do not ABIDE in Him, meaning that they do not obey and completely surrender to Him in their journey.
4. Those people (who believed at first, but did not abide in Him later) are the branches that do not abide in Jesus, and therefore, they will be cut off.
Conclusion: It is a big mistake to believe that one cannot lose salvation once saved. Philippians 2:12-13 said, "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you..." If salvation is "granted" once, why did the Apostle Paul say we should work with "fear" and "trembling"?
I Corinthians 9:27: "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." Look at the last word of the verse. "CASTAWAY", meaning losing salvation.
John 15:2 is a frightening verse; in that on the surface it would seem that someone could be saved but end up being lost. Romans 11:21-22 seems to reflect the same sort of picture. Since scripture can't contradict itself; this can't mean salvation can be lost. It does reflect that there are some who would gain prominence, reputations or financial gain from association with the church but whose hearts were never in it. Continuation is a theme here in verse 9 (perseverance of the saints in a way). Verse 16 makes it clear once again that God chose us for these good fruits; i.e. good works.
Going back to verse 2; the second part shows how God is doing the purging (or chastisement; and testing through trials) to gain MORE fruit for those truly in Him. The parable of the sower and the seeds ( Matthew 13:3-9 and in Luke) illustrates how those in Him must get to the point of producing fruit. This fruit comes from Him; therefore He is gaining a return for His investment or redemption achieved through the Atonement.
The concept of being called friends is once again attached to the idea of producing LASTING fruit as WELL as seeing answered prayers. This should give us pause to reflect on our own spiritual growth as well as being selective in WHO prays for us; looking for those that show evidence of these things.
Finally; we have verse 17 about the COMMAND to love one another; followed by the fact that men will HATE us because of Christ in us. This theme goes on to verse 26 where the Comforter is promised to do the talking; as well as the Disciples own eyewitness testimony in the following verse as part of their unique ministry. In light of this; we have to question churches that the world readily accepts in light of whether the TRUE and whole Gospel is being preached.
Your word has the truth of all that has been happening to me in the past year! I have and still am being attacked by worshipers of satan! I pray that I be released from all forms attacking me to no avail! I believe that God will work in me and has reason for not releasing me until it be his will! I believe there is a purpose that I cannot see or understand and I wait on Him! Pray for me and my children that love me for who I am! I'm A believer!
Bobby B., thanks for these scriptures. My faith had to grow up, I was naive, and didn't understand why "I was hated without a cause." I wanted to stay like a little girl in the faith, held in the arms of the Father and held in the arms of the world! But slowly he was rising as a Warrior in me, preparing instruments of battle in me. I didn't understand, I wanted to remain passive like a child in his arms. But no. It's not the Jesus of the church basement pictures, gentle, surrounded by little children. We grow up in faith to enter a battle, over time we are no longer surprised at the fiery trials, or the experience of being rejected. Rejection of the world is the way forward. "if you suffer with Him...."
"If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you."
1 John 3:1
"Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not."
1 John 2:15
"Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him."
Remember the story of Joseph, how his brethren despised him for his virtue. (Coat of many colors - 2 Samuel 13:18)
This awful type of situation can occur in any given setting. Haven't you heard the saying, the devil goes to church too. He wants to wreck havoc everywhere he goes. God's word tells us to resist the devil and he will flee. God's spirit as the Comforter will reveal every man's character. I would personally comfort this person!!! We do not run from the enemy, we put him in his place, then report him to elders, and police.
I learnt that God reveals deep knowledge to His friends, not to everyone. what qualifies you to be His friend is your obedience to His commands according to the previous verse.
Hello, with just limited information, I would say you have a few courses of action:
1. Report any illegal activity to the police
2. Report the facts of the problem (only what you 100% know is true, not any assumptions) to church leaders
3. Leave
The above two can by anonymous if you are concerned about ramifications. It's Biblical to try to solve issues within the church before escalating to use outside services, like attorneys or police. Maybe church leaders know about this or maybe they don't. One way to be sure is to anonymously send them a letter and inform them. One thing important in this process is only reporting the facts of what you personally witnessed, not assumptions or interpretations of things. Use quotes, dates, times, locations, names, who did what where and when. Gossip and hearsay can often lead to falsehoods and can cause even more harm, so as long as that is avoided in this process it will be on solid ground and will help people rather than hurt them. God bless.
I know the two resurrection you speak of, most believe what you believe.
The word speaks of Christ resurrection, then the resurrection of those who never believe that were raised with Christ.
Colossians 3:1 ... if ye be RISEN with Christ ....
Ephesians 2:6 .... and hath RAISED US us up together ....
Isaiah 26:19 .... TOGETHER with my dead body shall they ARISE ....
Hosea 6:2 ..... in the third day he will raise US UP .......
The saints that arose with Christ, were the Old Testament saints that had died in faith, but had never receive their promise of eternal life.
Those: in Revelation under the alter clothed in white are the Old saints awaiting their promise, eternal life, by their resurrection of Christ.
These are the 144,000 raised with Christ, the firstfruits of the resurrection.
Hebrews 11:39 And these all, havlng obtained a good report through faith, received not the PROMISE (eternal life).
Hebrews 11:40 Christ having provided some BETTER THING FOR US (never having to die and wait in the grave), that they WITHOUT US should not be made PERFECT (by our resurrection as one).
Hebrews 5:9 ...and having been made perfect .... by our resurrection as one ....
Philippians 3:15 Let us therefore who be perfect (by our resurrection as one), be thus minded: and if in any thing you be otherwise mined, God shall reveal even this to you.
God Bless YOU!
1. the resurrection of the dead at the second coming of Jesus Christ.
2. And, then 1000 years later, the resurrection of the wicked to receive their judgement.
I was not referring to the resurrection of our LORD which, in my opinion, is a special and separate deal. By the way, it's so interesting because after Christ rose, some of the dead were resurrected and seen in Jerusalem. The Bible says Jesus took captives in his train when he returned to Heaven. That's exciting. I wish it would've been me in the train. Oh well. I'll be patient. :)
Your right, there are two resurrections.
The first RESURRECTION .... is the resurrection of Christ .... and those that come to the truth of the gospel THAT YOU were joint heirs of that resurrection, and made ONE, were married to Christ, were baptised in HIS NAME.
The whole Bible is the promise of God to destroy death.
The promise has always been ETERNAL LIFE.
The wages of SIN (unbelief) has always been DEATH.
All this was accomplished when Christ was resurrected.
When you come to truth that YOU and Christ were resurrected TOGETHER, then you will never die again.
That is the FIRST DEATH and the FIRST RESURRECTION.
Luke 20:36 Neither can they (YOU) die anymore, for they (YOU) are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, BEING the children of THE RESURRECTION.
God BLESS YOU!
The RIGHTEOUS dead are raised at the FIRST resurrection to eternal life. The UNRIGHTEOUSNESS dead are raised at the SECOND resurrection. They will face the judgement seat of Christ and then they will die eternally. Their soul will die.
Below, verse 24 emphasizes that 'once saved, always saved' is a dangerous lie. How many children were saved in Sunday school and assume, as adults ,they are saved. But, they don't give one thought to God as an adult and they do not pursue sanctification in their life. Anyway, the following scripture is from Ezekiel:
"The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
But, if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes and do that which is right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? Saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
But when the righteous turn away from his righteousness, and committed iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All his righteousness that he has done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he has trespassed, and in his sin that he has sinned, in them shall he die." Ezekiel 18:20-24
You said one can lose their salvation.
What are you saved from?
Your SAVED from DEATH.
Christ is our PASSOVER sacrifice, death passed over us,
If we don't believe, then we die in our SIN of UNBELIEF.
But as you said, Christ is going to resurrect the DEAD, so one cannot lose his salvation, being saved from death.
God Bless YOU!
See Ezekiel 18:21-32.
However, the lost won't be eternally conscious in hell. God says they will surely die. Cease to exist. It's too hard to explain in a couple paragraphs. But, eternal life is only the reward of the righteous.
Also, when people die, they fall asleep until judgement day. We have an object lesson in our nightly sleep. Suddenly, it's morning. The idea of grandma watching over us from heaven is a satanic ploy. It makes room for seances, praying to dead saints, spiritism. Any dead relative appearing to a living relative is a demon impersonating the relative.
By the way, welcome to the site.
We live in such critical times where we see less planting and watering today. After we plant God gives the increase.
There has to be a seed planted before the watering and then God gives the increase. There we have a new birth!!
The role of the Holyspirit is the most neglected aspect of the Godhead! It's he that teaches us.
For ourselves the word of God is a must for our growth.
This forum and any other platform is an opportunity to witness.
Thanks and God bless.
The problem with the question of eternal security lies in having NO KNOWLEDGE of God's WORD.
If one deeply studies the PROPHECIES, one will see that at some point in the ages to come all the tribes of Israel are going to once again exit.
BUT, in this AGE he is ONLY calling out the PREISTHOOD, the house of David, the kind of firstfruits as is the tribe of Judah, lawgivers that will rule and reign and serve him when he resurrects all the DEAD back to there bodies of flesh and blood.
If one studies under the spirit of truth, you find these prophecies in the blessings of Israel to his twelve sons, from the beginning the tribe of Judah was CHOSEN to be God's lawgiver. The blessing on the remaining tribes will be fulfilled after all the lawgivers are put in place.
Isaiah, Ezekiel, Zachariah, and Revelation all prophesy ONLY a PART will be save in this age, one third (probably symbolic) since other prophecies seem to say ONE TENTH, the tithe to God, those without blemish being sacrificed with Christ on HIS CROSS.
You find this in the blessings of Jacob and Esau.
Hebrews 11:20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau CONCERNING THINGS TO COME.
There are TWO DEATHS, TWO RESURRECTION and TWO JUDGEMENTS,
The first death and resurrection is those SAVED in this AGE, the ones Christ CAUSES TO BELIEVE in this AGE, they are being judged by the words of God.
1 Timothy 4:10 ... who is the SAVIOUR of ALL MEN (not necessarily in this AGE), especially THOSE (in this AGE) that BELIEVE.
Isaiah 6:13 But yet in it (the land) shall be a tenth, and it (the tenth) shall be eaten (same as Christ is eaten, eat the words and digest them) as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance (CHRIST) IS IN THEM, when they cast their leaves (administer judgement), so the HOLY SEED shall be the substance thereof.
Obadiah 1:21 And SAVIOURS (those conformed to the image of Christ) SHALL COME upon Mt, Zion to JUDGE the house of ESAU
and the Kingdom shall be the LORDS.
Besides, this is the "discussion" section, not the comment section. Everyone is welcome to express their views and opinions about a specific verse.
I am an advocate for winning souls to Christ, and I have been doing so for the past 14 years. Let's keep the momentum and win more souls for the Kingdom.
Blessings to you!
Rather search for a debate to win on this topic eternal security, Let's join in bringing people to Christ and give them the Gospel that saves!
If you can lose it, you have to first get it.
There's many that will be deceived that's on both sides of that argument.
That's one of the problems with the Church today, There's a lack of preaching the Gospel and a great interest in debating.
Why not tell someone how to be saved and let them come to their own mind whether they can lose it.
God bless.
John 15:2: "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit."
I heard so many people saying that salvation cannot be lost. I think there is a necessity to define what "lost" means. Does it mean losing the communion with the Lord on this earth? Or does it mean going to hell after death? In my argument, I have chosen the latter definition, losing salvation = going to hell after death. If one finishes up not making it to heaven, it means the person has lost his salvation because the goal of salvation is to live where Jesus is ( John 14:3)
1. Who are the branches Jesus spoke about? The believers, here Jesus was not talking about non-believers (because they are not "branches").
2. Two types of branches: Branches that abide in Jesus, and branches that do not abide in Him, meaning believers who abide in Jesus, and believers who do not. Those who abide bear good fruit, but those who do not abide bear no fruit.
3. Note that there is a difference between accepting Jesus and abiding in Him. Some people accept Jesus but do not ABIDE in Him, meaning that they do not obey and completely surrender to Him in their journey.
4. Those people (who believed at first, but did not abide in Him later) are the branches that do not abide in Jesus, and therefore, they will be cut off.
Conclusion: It is a big mistake to believe that one cannot lose salvation once saved. Philippians 2:12-13 said, "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you..." If salvation is "granted" once, why did the Apostle Paul say we should work with "fear" and "trembling"?
I Corinthians 9:27: "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." Look at the last word of the verse. "CASTAWAY", meaning losing salvation.
Brethren, Let's walk in holiness.
John 15:2 is a frightening verse; in that on the surface it would seem that someone could be saved but end up being lost. Romans 11:21-22 seems to reflect the same sort of picture. Since scripture can't contradict itself; this can't mean salvation can be lost. It does reflect that there are some who would gain prominence, reputations or financial gain from association with the church but whose hearts were never in it. Continuation is a theme here in verse 9 (perseverance of the saints in a way). Verse 16 makes it clear once again that God chose us for these good fruits; i.e. good works.
Going back to verse 2; the second part shows how God is doing the purging (or chastisement; and testing through trials) to gain MORE fruit for those truly in Him. The parable of the sower and the seeds ( Matthew 13:3-9 and in Luke) illustrates how those in Him must get to the point of producing fruit. This fruit comes from Him; therefore He is gaining a return for His investment or redemption achieved through the Atonement.
The concept of being called friends is once again attached to the idea of producing LASTING fruit as WELL as seeing answered prayers. This should give us pause to reflect on our own spiritual growth as well as being selective in WHO prays for us; looking for those that show evidence of these things.
Finally; we have verse 17 about the COMMAND to love one another; followed by the fact that men will HATE us because of Christ in us. This theme goes on to verse 26 where the Comforter is promised to do the talking; as well as the Disciples own eyewitness testimony in the following verse as part of their unique ministry. In light of this; we have to question churches that the world readily accepts in light of whether the TRUE and whole Gospel is being preached.
John 16:33,
There are lots of lords in England.
God's real name is YHWH there are many god's Satan is a god.
Jesus' real name is Yahusha and in his time here in the world there was no letter J.
why use the Jews in the Bible as if they were YHWH people they are not the Hebrews of old, they are the Pharisees, that hated Yahusha.
They are pure Cabal from the Russian steps.
Are you even able to answer me? If you are it would be much appreciated.
YAH BLESS
Marcelo
I love Jesus
John 15:19
"If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you."
1 John 3:1
"Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not."
1 John 2:15
"Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him."
Remember the story of Joseph, how his brethren despised him for his virtue. (Coat of many colors - 2 Samuel 13:18)
1 John 3:13
"Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you."
1. Report any illegal activity to the police
2. Report the facts of the problem (only what you 100% know is true, not any assumptions) to church leaders
3. Leave
The above two can by anonymous if you are concerned about ramifications. It's Biblical to try to solve issues within the church before escalating to use outside services, like attorneys or police. Maybe church leaders know about this or maybe they don't. One way to be sure is to anonymously send them a letter and inform them. One thing important in this process is only reporting the facts of what you personally witnessed, not assumptions or interpretations of things. Use quotes, dates, times, locations, names, who did what where and when. Gossip and hearsay can often lead to falsehoods and can cause even more harm, so as long as that is avoided in this process it will be on solid ground and will help people rather than hurt them. God bless.