John Chapter 3 Discussion Page 6

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Re: the Lake of Fire. It is prepared for the Devil & his angels ( Matthew 25:41) but is also the place where all Christ-rejecters go to in the final judgement ( Revelation 20:10-15) & particularly verse 15, "whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." And that includes not only the Devil & his angels but also the anti-Christ, the false prophet & all mankind that were not found in the Book of Life.

"Who created such a place?" I would say that God has done this. "Who does "the torturing in hell?" No one - it is a place of continual fire where the act of dying is continual but death that is longed for never comes ( Mark 9:43-48).

And these are not parables by Jesus; Jesus is telling us what lies beyond the grave. And that is why Jesus came to die on our behalf: that we might be spared God's Judgement to enjoy new life on Earth & then eternity in His Presence. As I mentioned before, if just dying & returning to dust was our punishment, the Gospel would be practically meaningless, as we all have to die & enter into such a state of 'oblivion'. But Jesus says that some will awake to "the resurrection of life & some to the resurrection of damnation" ( John 5:29). There is no permanent middle ground at the graveside - we all have to go somewhere else - and that's why the Gospel is so special & precious: it saves a person entirely, both in this life and the next.

Hi Adam,

Just thought I'd look into the words for "fear" as you stated. The Hebrew seems to use two different words that are slightly different though close to the same word. "Yare" as "fearing; morally reverent, afraid" and "yirah" as "fear (also used as infinitive); morally reverence fear, terror, fearing, awesome or terrifying thing (object causing fear), fear (of God), respect, piety, revered".

The Greek words are "phobos" as "alarm or fright, fear, dread, terror, that which strikes terror, reverence for one's husband" and "phobeo" as "to frighten that is (passively) to be alarmed; by analogy to be in awe of that is revere, to reverence, venerate, to treat with deference or reverential obedience" simply.

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To respond to your questions Sacha: "The soul that sinneth it shall die, if I were not saved what would I prefer to happen to me after death, eternal infernal torture by some horrifying demon or to just cease to exist?" I believe that you're quoting from Ezekiel chapter 18; if so, then this chapter speaks about the punishment of a son for his father's sins. The answer is that each one is responsible for his own sins (verses 4 & 20). So the death spoken of here is not one of judgement in the afterlife but of punishment received now (i.e. the death sentence) for committing such sins as shown in this chapter. As well, you asked "what would I prefer to happen to me after death". I think we would all prefer to live in total happiness & bliss, but what we prefer to happen to us is not necessarily what God's Justice demands.

Indeed, the "dead know not anything" ( Ecclesiastes 9:5), & as we know that Book is essentially a discussion about life, its vanities & its inconsistencies. So yes, in the grave, the body is not only in decomposition but also has no mental activity - this is simply the state of the dead & not of judgement. The Jews indeed entered into a Covenant relationship with their Creator, but the same Jew has no recourse to that circumcision or to the Law that would usher him into God's Presence, if he chooses to reject the Sacrifice of God in Jesus. Both Jew & Gentile suffer the same fate because of Unbelief & Christ-rejection.

Thank you for your detailed reply S Spencer.



God Bless you.

Hello Sacha,

No need to be sorry, you have created no havoc. As the "everyone is to be saved" part I don't think I stated you said that. Just that I went through thinking that a while ago. Just in line with "no hell" which is what I think you believe.

About the couple verses you stated for me as an answer to the first analogy I wrote "I just really see it as if we say there is a hell and there really isn't what wrong have we done" which is Christ quoting Isaiah 29:13. Which I can't quite link that to this. Then quoting the end of Revelation about changing the prophesies of the Bible. That is why I believe there is a place of eternal torment or "hell". Because the Bible says so. As you didn't reply to the second analogy in that "if people don't believe in "hell" though it really exists". How this could be dangerous to others in my eyes.

As Adam gave a good reply about to "fear God". This teaching is throughout the Bible as we are also to love Him. Say how you would love your dad but if you do something wrong you may be whipped for it and scared to know it's coming. Though this is much higher as with God. A couple more verses for you Psalms 34:9, Psalms 115:13, Proverbs 3:7, Luke 1:50, Romans 3:18, 2 Corinthians 7:1, Hebrews 12:28, Revelation 19:5.

As I have over forty verses to love God.

To the last statement of "if they told you that they had had a near death or actual death experience that fully validated substantiated and confirmed all their religious beliefs ?" Well, as there are hundreds probably thousands of NDE's and some have no experience at all. I have never heard of someone meeting Buddah, Allah, or Muhammed etc. Though I have seen people converted to Christ from those other religions. Even Atheists who didn't believe. As there are many and all are personal and unique. There are many things that connect with the teachings of the Scriptures.

In kindness.

God Bless.

Hello Earl, Thank you also for sharing some of your life here. I think there is definitely a mystery in how and why God draws close to us in what we perceive as good and bad, mountain top or riverbed in this time. The more surrendered we are, the more we are like Him and the less we are of ourselves. The highest honor to the Father is to fully love His Son and live and breathe within Him by free will choice. Still part of the mystery is Jesus as part of the Godhead so he can also by choice be surrendered in the Father and in the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost is also surrendered in God the Father and in God the Son by choice and God the Father by the fact that both the Son and the Holy Ghost are free willed can rest in their surrendered Will as His own. We as born again Christians are called back in this time into this Holy Will by choice to be made free again in this loving, eternal, holy purpose of Jesus Christ with the angels and all of the redeemed. The harvest will be full and complete at the end. Like the natural world, there are parts of what was planted that never make the harvest and have no purpose in the full and abundant harvest and will be forgotten. Spiritually, these forgotten parts, souls, of the planting are aware that the harvest took place without them and they have been separated eternally from the Holy Will of God.

For meditation.

Hello Earl,

I am honored that you shared that history of your life with us. Thank you very much. It means a lot.

I'm not sure what you mean by "I change my mine because you wont find any prophecies of free will, HELL or heaven; only a KINGDOM."

I think you are correct as the statement "free will" is not in the Bible directly. Though several verses that, I believe, point to this are: Joshua 24:15, John 7:17, Galatians 5:13, James 1:13-16. For a couple.

The word "hell" has taken over the Hebrew word "sheol" in the OT. Three Greek words "gehenna" "hades" and "tartarus" in the NT. All described as "bad" places simply.

For Heaven there are numerous as the one used the most in the NT, hundreds of times, is "ouranos". Strongs definition "the sky; by extension heaven (as the abode of God); by implication happiness power: eternity; specifically the Gospel (Christianity)". In John 3:13, John 3:31. Kingdom used a lot together with this word as in Matthew 6:10, Matthew 18:3.

Thanks for your replies Earl.

God Bless.

I would enjoy doing that for you Earl.

The Greek word for "torments" in Luke 16:23 is pronounced "basanos". If you type in "Strongs number G931" on google that will bring up links to this Greek word you can look over.

The definition can be of a "touchstone to test gold or silver". The rest of the definitions are "the rack or instrument of torture by which one is forced to divulge the truth, torture, torment, acute pains, of the pains of a disease, of those in hell after death".

It seems it is only used three times in the NT. Matthew 4:24, Luke 16:23, Luke 16:28.

God Bless.

Hi Richard,

I agree there is a hell. I believe it because the bible says it!

To teach otherwise can be dangerous, It sounds similar to Satan discrediting Gods word when Satan deceived Eve.

"And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:" Genesis 3:4.

And here's scriptural proof they don't just cease from existing.

1st of all the resurrection, and the term we know as the 2nd death.

Acts 24:15. And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a RESURRECTION of the dead, ( both of the just and UNJUST. )

What's the point in raising the unjust just to send them right back to the grave?

Matthew 25:41, 46 (KJV) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:...42..43..44..

...And these shall go away into EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT:

but the righteous into life eternal.

Hell was created for the devil and his angels but his children will go there also, and to take note,

YOU CAN'T WEEP AND NASH TEETH IF YOU NO LONGER EXIST, NEITHER CAN YOU ENDURE EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT.

Matthew 13:42-43. AND SHALL CAST THEM INTO A FURNACE OF FIRE: ""THERE SHALL BE WAILING AND GNASHING OF TEETH.

Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.

Revelation 20:14-15. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the Second death.

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the LAKE OF FIRE.

HERE IT SEEMS TO BE A RELOCATION, AND DEATH ( AND HELL IS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE!! )

When the restrainer is taken out of the way

( Thes 2:7 )

you see how evil men really is. War against God ect.

Revelation 16:9. And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

They'll be just like their father the Devil.

No repentance. Forever tormented.

The scripture is clear.

GB.

In reply to " The 1st commandment is to LOVE God not fear him"

The Bible says many times to fear God. The Bible doesn't say to "not" fear God as you put it. 1 John 4:18 seems to suggest love and fear and opposites. Maybe these are mutually exclusive when it comes to how we treat others, but maybe God in an exception. The Bible clearly says to love God and clearly says to fear God. Therefore, I'm inclined to believe that it's both. Some say the fear means a high level of respect rather than a petrified fear. If anyone wants to compare the original Hebrew or Greek to see if its the same word or not, that might be helpful.

Proverbs 9:10, Ephesians 5:21, Jeremiah 32:39, Luke 12:5, Leviticus 25:17.

Richard, I would like to ask a favour. I don't know how to look up a word in Greek. Would you please look up the Greek word "torments" used in Luke 16:23 and tell me how many other places it appears and how it is applied. Thank you.

Richard, may CHRIST IN US grace us with HIS wisdom and HIS understanding.

I DON'T BELIEVE the scriptures can contradict themselves.

There are hundreds of places in the scriptures that say ALL will worship GOD.

They can not worship God if they are in Hell.



In Ezekiel 5 and Zachariah 13 it says a third will be brought through the fire; Revelation 9:18 says a third are killed by fire, smoke and brimstone. These have to be the same third as in Ezekiel and Zachariah because verse 20 says the rest repented not. This same third is the ones in Revelation 8.

Revelation 19 The whole chapter is about the ones called to the marriage supper. Before we can come to the supper we have to be cleansed. We are cast into the lake of fire (vs 20). We have our flesh destroyed (vs 21). God is no respector of persons. Have we ever been fearful, unbelieving, liars. Revelation 21:8 says all these will have their part in the lake of fire. Did not Christ have victory over DEATH AND THE GRAVE Revelation 20:14 says DEATH AND THE GRAVE were destroyed by the lake of fire.

I BELIEVE ALL THINGS HAVE AN APPOINTED TIME

Ecclesiastes 3

I believe ALL things are by the will of God; good and bad. His will is always carried out by man; but THE WORKS ARE OF GOD. Therefore GOD will have mercy on ALL; but in HIS appointed TIME.

Jeremiah 2:19 Thine own wickedness shall CORRECT THEE ......

Jeremiah 46:28 ......but I will not make a full end of thee, but CORRECT THEE in measure; yet will I not leave thee wholly UNPUNISHED.

Psalms 94:10 He that chastiseth the heathen, shall he not CORRECT? ......

FOR MEDITATION: If the damned have a natural body at their resurrection; literal fire will kill them in a few seconds. If they are resurrected with a glorified body: literal fire can't hurt them.

SPIRITUAL FIRE CAN hurt both; natural and glorified.

Hey Sacha I agree, if we start our study with the answer in our mind, what we read will support and confirm the answer even if it is wrong. We operate 85 to 90% in our subconscious mind that we have programed over the years of teachings and from things we have seen and heard. Preconceived ideas block the truth, preconceived ideas create a scotoma, a blind spot. If we are dead set on what a certain scripture means and are unwilling to study to see if we may be wrong, how can the Holy Spirit guide us if we already have the answer. We must open our heart before we study, and profess to not know anything, but profess we believe Jesus through the Holy Spirit will lead and show us the truth. It is a blessing to be shown we were wrong by the light of the truth.

God bless, Ron

Chris , Psalm 37 is all about how we should not evny the apparent prosperity and happiness of the wicked and what their end shall be ,you will notice that nothing is mentioned about them going to hell to be tortured for eternity by hideous demons ,there is more than one Psalm in this vein but its the one that comes straight to mind to me .

The sinner must just disapear into non existence into the earth ,Chris yes ,why is it that anyone should believe that they diserve more than that ? The soul thar sinneth it shall die ,if i were not saved what would i prefer to happen to me after death ,eternal infernal torture by some horrifying demon or to just cease to exist ? The dead know nothing ,no pain no sadness no nothing ,they dont exist and unless they have entered into a covenant relationship with God ,either by circumcision if they are Jewish or baptism if Christian the dead just stay dead . That is what we all deserve because of our sinfullness ,God in His very great and tender mercy ,because He loves us ,devised a means by which we might be reconciled to Him by faith in the life and works and willing sacrifice of His only begotten Son Jesus Christ the Righteous .

Hi Richard in Christ ,im so sorry ive created a bit of havoc ! I shall try and get back on track with you if i may , 'everyone is to be saved ' ,im so sorry but i never said that and i wouldnt as i dont believe that ,also 'i just really see it as if we say there is a hell and there really isnt what wrong have we done '? Math ch15 v7-9 and Mrk ch 7 v1-9 and Rev ch22 v18&19 . The 1st commamdment is to LOVE God not fear him 2nd Tim ch1 v7 ,1st John ch4 v18 and Rev ch21 v8 ,also as a Christian ,what would you say to some one of a different faith ,it doesnt matter which one ,if they told you that they had had a near death or actual death experience that fully validated substantiated and confirmed all their religious beliefs ? I think ive rambled on enough now ,hope you can understand me ok ,im not confident that im always able to express my self clearly ,sorry if im a bit jumbled ,i always know what i want to say but when i read it back it never sounds ok to me .

Matthew 8:12, 13:42, 13:50, 22:13, 24:51, 25:30

Luke 13:28

Hi Sacha,

As I see this comment was directed towards me I shall respond kindly.

I very much understand that people have their own beliefs. I respect that as even some of my brothers in Christ do not agree with everything I state. I don't condemn anyone. Though truth is what is most important to me. Please don't take that in that I think I'm smart. I am a humble person.

I myself have gone through believing that "everyone is to be saved" in the end. Thinking in the same sense of in your other post in that "God is love". As I've stated to Earl this would not bother me as whatever God's Will is I'm for that. Though that perspective did not hold up very long. As Christ teaches about "saved and unsaved" over ten times. Using statements of eternal punishment and eternal life. Eternal being the same Greek word "aionios" meaning just that in both cases.

I just really see it as if we say there is a hell and there really isn't, what wrong have we done in that many have come to repentance seeing these things being taught in the Holy Scriptures. Maybe making some be better people by fearing God as we are taught to do and this is the beginning of wisdom.

Though stating to people there is no hell, or eternal damnation/torment, and there really is. Maybe that made that person not care what they did and, live in sin and iniquity, not caring about anything or anyone but themselves. Ruining their chance at Salvation and eternal life. I would feel really bad.

As I just go by what the Scripture teaches and has been for thousands of years. Me bringing up people who have been dead and experienced things like paradise/heaven even meeting Jesus Christ also. Just what my journey has lead me to research and believe more in what the Holy Bible teaches.

Hope all is well Sacha.

God Bless.

Ok Chris ,can you please tell me who exactly does the torturing in hell ? Im not being facetious ,i really dont know ,thankyou .

Oh good grief ! Please forgive me ,it was Richard in Christ not you Chris ,im sooooo sorry ,l do have reading glassess ! I must remember to put them on occasionally ! Im so sorry .

Thank you Sacha for your comment. Now this thread you refer to, I do remember. I know that many don't believe in a literal place of suffering & eternal torment, as those who refer to themselves as Jehovah's Witnesses believe the same. All that we know of such a place is found in God's Word, so it boils down to whether we accept what is given or treat those passages as somehow lacking in actuality & just a vivid description of a soul's abandonment.

Sacha, you are well read in the Scriptures, so I need not list even some of those passages which speak of suffering & an eternal torment. I would say that many of the people I've spoken to who also don't believe in a place of suffering, usually cannot fathom how a merciful loving God could consign anyone to such a place - surely there must be some respite & future forgiveness or else, the sinner must just disappear into non-existence into the earth.

Simply put, why I believe in a literal place of punishment & torment is because OF THE CROSS. You & I know that all of mankind are sinners & our sins have separated us from God ( Isaiah 59:2). So why should God provide such a Sacrifice for us? Since we ALL have to die physically, why not just let us "eat, drink & be merry" for only the grave lies before us?

Did Jesus, the Son of God, willingly lay down His Life just to give us better option of deliverance than just returning back to dust? True, the prospect of living eternally in God's Presence ought to be our desire, but for me (& from the preaching of Jesus & the apostles), the CERTAINTY of eternal torment (for my sins & rejection of God's salvation) is equally compelling for me to flee the sinful life & cleave to the One Who gives new life & hope. If there wasn't a hell, then God fails as a God of justice, as death alone is insufficient punishment for sin. ( Matthew 25:41). The fact that God provided us a place at Calvary proves that His Love was so great that warranted our preservation from a place far worse than death.

Hi Sacha. Since you haven't attached your comment to the original thread, I'm unsure what you're referring to. I cannot remember ever writing to Earl or anyone about those who have died & come back to life or experienced near death experiences. If you can find that thread, I might be able to respond properly.

The word of God is not complicated ,it can be complex but not complicated ,God is not the author of confusion ,we humans can complicate matters for ourselves whe n we come to the Bible with preconceptions of what we are going to find ,we all have them about all kinds of things ,suppositions ,presumptions and asumptions ,when i told one of my step daughters that no where in the Bible are there female angels she was stunned ,if we come to the Bible looking for comfort we will find it ,if we come to the Bible looking for smooth words we will find them ,if we come to the Bible with a truely open mind and heart ,leaving all our memories of fables and magical tales and all our own desires of what we want and expect to find ,we will find the Truth . The Truth shall make us free .

Hi Chris again ,i think im going to be very cheeky now so i ask you to please forgive me ,you asked Earl what he would say to people who have died and come back or experienced near death experiences , i personally wouldnt say anything to them ,if thats what they or anyone else wants to believe thats fine by me ,i am convinced in my own mind of my beliefs but i honestly dont feel the need to cinvince any one else , if some one asks me what i believe i will tell them but if others dont believe what i do im ok with that ,to me most of the time ,the Bible is very simple and straight forward ,it hasnt always been so but i just keep reading and praying and meditating on things and im convinced of my conclusions .I dont go on any other religious sites ,you tube etc ,i know what i know and im ok if others dont agree ,may God continue to bless you and all yours .

Hi Chris ,i noticed you asked Earl about his beliefs ,or lack of ,regarding hell ,i dont mean to but in i promise ,i actually do not understand what it is i am supposed to believe about hell ,genuinely ,what is hell ? Who goes there ? Why ? What happens there ? I honestly dont know ,i guess it doesnt help that i dont believe humans are immortal ,this could be a big discussion and i havent had coffee yet ,i just wanted you and everyone on here to know that there is defo more than one person who doesnt believe in hell as a place of permenant torture for millions of people . God is love ,the soul that sinneth it shall die .We all sin we all die ,some of us will be ressurected to judgement and the rest are just dead . Big topic !

Hi Earl,

Please forgive me to reply to this but I feel to. I understand you don't believe in Hell, or eternal damnation, though I do and to me it seems it was a very important thing Christ taught. To Repent from sins/iniquity and follow Him down the straight and narrow path that leads to life eternal. As He is the way.

The Lord taught not all are going down that path. Matthew 7:13-14. Here He states not everyone is to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven Matthew 7:21. As He stated there shall be some to go away to everlasting punishment but the righteous to life eternal Matthew 25:31-46. Numerous parables of the wicked being separated from the just in the end Matthew 13:37-50.

Though if Luke 16:19-31, is a parable what it states is not hard to see. The man who suffered and begged died and was carried by angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man who lived lavishly and did not help Lazarus died and was in Hades in torment. Even though he begged for a touch of water He did not receive it. Just being told how Lazarus who suffered was now comforted and he was now in torment. Even when he begged that a message be sent to his family that they repent so they would not end up as he did. He was told that if they hear not Moses and the prophets, they would neither be persuaded by one raising from the dead.

I also don't understand how you think the "fire" of God that tries/chastens us and our works it the same as "eternal fire, torment and punishment".

Could you please explain some of these things? As I see it very dangerous to say a place of eternal damnation does not exist.

Have you ever looked into people who have died, came back to life, and actually experienced a place that is worse than we could imagine? Usually calling it hell and has converted many people to believing in Christ. What would you say to them?

I would never think to tell anyone hell is not real. What if it is and you were wrong? Making people think it doesn't matter what they do?

Thanks God Bless.

Joe, may CHRIST IN US grace us with HIS wisdom and HIS understanding.

If Lazarus and and the rich man is not a parable; it makes Christ's words a lie:

Matthew 13:34 ALL these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in PARABLES;and without a PARABLE SPAKE HE NOT UNTO THEM.

Luke 12:41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest this parable unto us, or even to all?

The disciples walked with Jesus three and one half years and never understood a word he said; UNTIL he took them aside and explained the PARABLES to them. Today you can't understand the PARABLES; unless CHRIST IN YOU explains them to you. Ask and you shall receive.

Ezekiel 20:47 And say to the forest of the south, Hear the word of the LORD, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will kindle a FIRE in thee, and it shall devour every green tree in thee, and every dry tree: the flaming FIRE shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burned therein.

Ezekiel 20:42 Then said I, Ah Lord God, Doeth he not speak in PARABLES?

Luke 12:49 I am come to send FIRE on the earth; and what will I, if it be ALREADY KINDLED?

Luke 12:50 But I have a baptism to be baptised with; and how am I straightened till it be accomplished!

Matthew 3:11 ......he shall baptise you with the Holy Ghost; and with FIRE.

John 10:6 Jesus spake this parable unto them: but they UNDERSTOOD NOT what things they were which he spoke to them.

Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming FIRE.

In regards to hell, it does mention brimstone, a weeping & nashing of teeth, which leads me to believe it is more than just a hole in the ground. You are right that hell is not something that God created. Hell is something that humans unleash upon each other as James describes. Also, in the story of the rich man and Lazarus, Jesus uses proper names, which could indicate that this is not a parable.

Unknown tongues vs Prophesy: which one is preferred?

Those who receive the Holy Ghost do not normally speak in an unknown tongue, a tongue that only God understands. Unknown tongues yield little value on the spiritual spectrum. It's good between that person and God, but does nothing to enlighten others.

( 1 Corinthians 14:2-5;27,28)

2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Unknown tongue restrictions:

27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

vs 5: I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied...

When a born-again believer dies, his soul goes immediately into the presence of the Lord.



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We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:8

King James Version