John Chapter 5 Discussion Page 3

My son also is an Israelite or should say studying the Isralite Truth. He really enjoys the teaching. He listens to IUIC on line.

Some may wonder if you are calling on God with the name of your interests or on His redeemer?

Iam a hebrew israeli and i keep wondering why you all who knows so much truth that you all do not teach the truth when you teach about the true name of the creator yah and the true name of yah son is yahshua dose it say in john 5:43 that he said he(yahshua)came in his father name but you or anyone else can show that name in the old scriptures.

that the name that you all is pushing as being yahweh or yah name

When I read the Scriptures, I ask God to show me what to read. Oh how I was blessed to know that we must come

to the Son ( Jesus ) to get to God ( our Father). I praise God that the man sitting at the pool didn't need help to get

into the pool for healing. He had the healer, Jesus right there. We do not need anyone to go to God on our behalf,

we can go directly for our self. Thankful that we are under Grace and not the Law. I love God, Jesus, and the Holy

Ghost. I try to keep my heart fixed with a good relationship with God so when I need Him , he knows who I am.

Mike, yes, it is very wrong to pray to the Virgin Mary - in fact she hasn't even been a virgin since the birth of Jesus, since she had many more children ( Mt 12:46-50, 13:55,56 & others).

Jesus alone makes intercession for us ( Rom 8:34) & His Spirit also intercedes on our behalf when we are unable to pray properly, maybe in ignorance ( Rom 8:26). So the whole purpose of prayer, whether in praise & worship or in requesting from the Lord, is to direct our prayer to the Lord only without any other mediator (whether a priest, Mary or another Saint). To do that, means that we have no confidence that our prayers to God will be heard & so we need an intermediary between God & man. Our Intermediary can only & will only be Christ Jesus. To go to another means that we do despite to Christ's Holy & Blessd position with the Father.

1 Timothy 2:5

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

There is no benefit to pray to Mary. Because she is not God. It is abomination to pray to her.

1st commandment: Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Exodus 23:24

Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images.

Why is it wrong to pray to the Virgin Mary? I know that it takes away the reason for Jesus coming and dying for our sins, but is there any benefit to pray to Mary as some believe?

Valarie, There are many verses concerning being thankful. King David is most thankful in the book of Psalms

Psalm 106:1 Psalm 107:1 Ephesians 5:20 1Thessalonians 5:18. Also in the New Testament, Our Lord Jesus

always gave thanks to God the Father. I believe our Father God wants us to always come before him with

a thankful heart. " May the Lord bless you and keep you" numbers 6:24

You could also look at:

Isa 9:6; Mt 28:19; Jn 1:1-14; 5:18; 10:30-33; 14:9-11; 15:26; 17:22; Phil 2:5-8; Col 2:9; Heb 1:6; 1 Jn 5:7.

I've just given them in book/verse order to make it easier for you to look up.

However, when you say "characteristically" & the above references are not what you're looking for, then as you read the Gospels, you will see the character & work of Jesus Christ & His Spirit are in line in every respect to that of God the Father (i.e. in Love, Truth, Justice, Holiness, fulfilling the Plan set out for the World).

1 Thessalonians 5:18

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Link

At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Link

I can not seem to find the scripture regarding thankfulness. I remember I was in jail and there was a woman that was very angry . I was just an infant in CHRIST at that time. But I remember I was giving GOD thanks for all things. She was very angry and had the attitude how could I give thanks for being in jail. Of course I was thankful because in my heart I realized things could always be worse, but also I had read a scripture saying giving thanks for all things and I showed it to her and she was surprised. But now I can not find that scripture. Please help. Thank you.

what versus indicate that The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit are one ? I don't mean physically, but characteristically...

Thank you, Chris. That is good to know. My apologies. I just had a difficult time understanding what you wrote. But after reading the other posts that followed, it became clearer. You bring up Good points everyone should really look into, not just argue against. Thanks for the insight.

My answer? A bacteria that causes respiratory sickness that was very likely developed in a laboratory in China, was mishandled & spread globally.

1.What do you call this virus that attack the world ?

Your answer: ???

My answer: Leviathan demonic spirit

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To restate, I've always been a firm post-Tribber, even to the disappointment of my former Fellowship ('80/'90s), but in my studies (as from my comments here), I'm convinced that God's dealing with the world (both now & in the end times) must be distinct for each family: whether the family of God or the family of Satan.

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Secondly, the Rapture is taught by Paul as a Mystery ( 1 Cor 15:51-53) & alluded to by Peter ( 2 Pet 2:4-9). Even though the prophets in the OT spoke of future events that they had no knowledge of, it became something that was revealed later on, whether in the OT or NT. So too with Christ's Coming: this great day had been spoken of in the OT & again by Jesus, but it was only through Paul that showed that the Day of the Lord had another important matter attached to it, viz. the removal of the saints prior to the Great Tribulation. How did he learn this? Paul doesn't enlighten us.

Thirdly, the event described in 1 Thes 4:15-17 can be simply understood that the saints will be 'snatched away' & taken to be with the Lord (in Heaven), before the Wrath of God is poured out (on Earth). If this passage is applied to His physical Second Coming for his people, then is it then just a physical removal from various nations to be transported to Jerusalem? Maybe, the impossibility of quickly obtaining an air ticket or visa for Israel would unnecessarily delay matters, hence the 'free ride in the sky'. I have to understand this Rapture as a removal, to Heaven, of the Saints, as the spectacle of God's Judgement is laid open to all in His Presence.

Fourthly, the Trump of God. I realize that this is commonly taken to refer to the last Trumpet in Rev 10:7 & it appears as a correct assumption. However, whenever the trumpet is sounded, it can also be in relation to a heralding ( Ex 19:13; Lev 25:9; Josh 6:5, etc.), so the last Trump may even be the final 'clarion sound' from a series of earlier trumpet calls to the nations (e.g. Ps 47:5; Isa 27:13; Jer 51:27). This is just a thought & certainly not assumed, but shared as another application to 1 Thes 4:16).

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Hi Carlos. Good to connect with you again brother. You're probably well acquainted with my position with Eschatology as from my other comments, but to deal with the questions you asked:

I know I won't find agreement with other 'pre-Tribbers' either, but then where can you find two believers in total agreement on everything? So, it is my sense that wherever we find Jesus speaking on His second Coming, it is specifically on His Coming post Tribulation. I realize that certain folk see the Rapture events mentioned in the Gospels as well (e.g. "one taken, the other left", "of that day & hour knoweth no man", etc), but I believe that Jesus wasn't speaking about the Rapture; indeed, the Rapture was not even declared by the prophets or Christ.

So what then makes me understand the Rapture as an event, pre-Tribulation? As stated, firstly, it is the removal of the saints prior to the outpouring of God's Wrath. Whenever we see God's Wrath being poured out (& examples given earlier), His (righteous) people have been taken to safety. And I was specific about HIS Wrath as compared to the trials/tribulations that come upon us daily or even in an overwhelming way. And as been also stated by Ann & others, our sin has been judged at the Cross & we don't fall under His Hand again. Is it correct that we should presume that God will still need to pour out His Anger on His blood-bought, when God's Anger (& our sin) was laid upon Christ on our behalf (Propitiate: 1 Jn 2:2, 4:10)? Whereas, His Wrath must be directed to those who have rejected Him & His Christ, without even the seed of saving faith to secure them from any judgement.

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Chris, I don't understand the reasoning to support a pre-tribulation exit and Christians being judged twice. Bob Hilt pointed out that Matthew 13 is a parable specific to the Rapture and Return of Christ. Do we have to stretch the imagination to come up with a justification for a rapid exit before the Tribulation? Can you give us more details?

I think that in light of what is specifically stated by Christ in Matthew 24:29, Paul, Peter and others, anything said that invalidates that is suspect. Where specifically is Matt 24:29 contradicted?

What is the Scriptural basis for saying, for example that, "yes, he is coming on a horse, but he is going to sneak in before that on foot?"

Ann,

Should a person have to read how to be saved if they're already saved? It seems as though you are making an assumption that Adam is not saved? I've read most of his posts and I see no reason to doubt that he is saved. I would like to comment on the faith and works portion of your post if you don't mind. You say that for faith and works, it can't be both? I think that for a person who belongs to Christ, it is both.

Works show proof of faith. James 2:14 says, What doeth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him? Literally, can the faith save him? The question itself in Greek expects the answer no. Can the faith save him if he says he has faith but does not have works? The word works in the Greek text literally means activity.

If we put faith and activity together, we understand that if God's Spirit is present in us, there will be activity (Works). Works do not produce faith. But faith produces works. Martin Luther had problems with James because he said that James contradicted Paul's teachings because Paul said that we're justified, not out of works but out of faith. But James said if you don't have works you don't have faith. So it sounds like they are contradicting each other.

But Paul talked about the root of the tree that faith does not come from out of works. James on the other hand talked about the fruit of the tree. That is to say, if you have the faith of Jesus Christ, you will bear fruit (Works) from the Spirit of God.

Jesus said that in Matthew Chapter 7, by their fruit you shall know them. We don't produce fruit. God's Spirit in us produces fruit. And that fruit is evidenced by good works. Paul talked about the root (Christ) where salvation comes from. James talks about the activity (Works) of God's Spirit in a person's life. So I would say that for a true believer, there has to be both.

Yes, we are not saved by human works, but once we are saved, there will be activity (Works).

Hi Ann, this is a predictable discussion. I know all the verses you shared and agree with them, because I believe in the Bible- all of it, not just cherry picked verses. Have you read the entire chapter context around these verses? Because it completes the thought and explains what exactly it means. I can pluck out things too that only share part of the picture, like 1 Timothy 2:15.

You said something before worth analyzing: "FAITH or WORKS??? It CAN'T BE BOTH!"

Why not? Who said it can't be both? It is both. The Bible already says it's both and even already predicted this exact believe and refused it. James 2:17 says faith without works is dead- do you believe that? If not, what is your explanation for not believing this part of the Bible?

Since you believe Paul, do you believe what he wrote in Romans 7? He talked about his deep struggle in trying to avoid sin and do good. Why would he struggle if doing good isn't necessary one bit? He called himself captive (prisoner) of sin. He was in deep torment to try to do good. If no good works was necessary why didn't he instead just party and live a life of sin and not worry about spreading the gospel, if he was already 'saved'? The Bible makes the answer clear.

James 2:19 - even demons believe in God and Jesus, including satan. So, if all that's needed to be saved and go to heaven is to believe does that mean satan will go to heaven? If not, why? Hitler attended church and might have been a Christian in his early years, so will we see him in heaven too, despite Romans 2:6?

Is it 'wrong' to do good works? If so, why does the Bible say in multiple places to do good? Matthew 7:16-23. Jesus says most people will go to hell and you'll know his followers by their fruit. If good isn't needed, then why would Jesus say this. Was he lying? It would be a very hard argument to make that living a fruitful life of good works is 'bad', because that's exactly what the Bible says to do and how you can recognize genuine Christians. Christians aren't saved by good works, though. That's a logical fallacy to assume that. Grace alone saves. If someone wants to follow Jesus, however, it requires action, doing things.

Reading the entire chapter context of the Bible clears up such misunderstandings. God bless you in your journey for the truth.

Ann Hering, I have to disagree with you. There is no distinction in the Bible that would warrant belief in 2 separate Gospels. However:

1. Do any of the writers of the New Testament support the allegations you have outlined? That is, do any of the writers of the NT say what you say you have been taught? Does Paul say that the Gospel he preaches is different than what Peter preaches?

2. Does the teaching you point to, provide hard evidence, not conjecture or speculation? For example, Peter tells us to listen to Paul's teaching, because they are Scripture, 2 Peter 3:16:

"Consider also that our Lord's patience brings salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him. He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. Therefore, beloved, since you already know these things, be on your guard so that you will not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure standing. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever."

You cite a lot of verses that have nothing to do with the Bible message. But not only do you cite them, you change their meaning by adding words that don't belong.

Tell me, Ann, who were Sylvanus and Marcus, that Peter writes about in 1 Peter 5:12f? Finally, tell me what the difference is between the Gospel Peter preached and what Paul preached?

In Acts 16:4, we see Paul and Silas "And as they went through the cities, THEY DELIVERED THEM THE DECREES FOR TO KEEP, THAT WERE ORDAINED OF THE APOSTLES AND ELDERS WHICH WERE AT JERUSALEM. And so were the churches established in the faith."

Paul proclaimed the Gospel the Apostles outlined for everyone in Jerusalem. It was one Gospel message.

Adam ...

The Word of God is CLEAR!

Salvation is by GRACE through FAITH in believing that Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins, was buried, and rose again!

That's IT!

Galatians 2:16

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Romans 11:6

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

2 Timothy 1:9

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Romans 4:4

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Galatians 5:4

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

I AM sticking with WHAT Paul SAYS!

You SEE Salvation is just BELIEVING in what Jesus Christ DID for US!

NO WORKS required!

Just be careful disparaging on Gods chosen people. He has his plans. God has "yelled" at me for judging a few times. I'm cured.

Please be respectful. The Bible already answered your question. You cited a verse in James, but have you read the whole book, specifically James 2? If someone disagrees with that then they're disagreeing with God's word. And if they disagree with God's word, who are they following exactly? If someone disagrees that Christianity requires action then they are disagreeing with Jesus himself. It's clear who wins that argument. The Bible is what matters, not what people want to believe.

Adam . . .

Which ONE is IT?

FAITH or WORKS???

It CAN'T BE BOTH!

Ephesians 2:8-9

For by GRACE are ye saved through FAITH; and that NOT of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

NOT of WORKS, lest any man should boast.

James 2:24

Ye see them how that by WORKS a man is justified, and NOT by FAITH ONLY.

You HAVE A DILEMMA!

ANSWER:

WHO is James written TO?

James 1:1

James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, TO THE TWELVE TRIBES which are scattered abroad, greeting.

James was writing to ISRAEL!

WHO is Paul writing TO?

Ephesians 3:6

That the GENTILES should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Pretty CLEAR, You Are A GENTILE!

Paul is The Apostle Of The GENTILES!

You had better listen to Paul, Romans to Philemon, to FIND out HOW to be SAVED!

People actually do need to 'do something' to be saved. Believe Jesus is Lord and God's son, confess and repent of sins, and follow Jesus by obeying his commandments- those are all actions. This is what Jesus says himself: John 14:15.

Bob . . .

Satan is the god of this world and he has used religion since The Garden of Eden to convince mankind that they can DO something to appease a Righteous God (the fig leaves)!

Man is a sinner and needs SAVING!

The Jews were so caught up in "religion" that they missed The Son Of God coming to them to save THEM!

That is the same boat that the world is in TODAY!

Most people believe that religion, doing a bunch of good works, is going to save them, but boy, are they WRONG!

The preaching of The Cross is the POWER of God unto SALVATION!

I don't hear The Gospel being preached in churches/religion today.

That is WHY people are NOT being saved.

Satan is having his way today, but ONE DAY, God is going to have HIS WAY!

Carlos ...

Peter and Paul did NOT preach the same thing!

NO WAY!

Peter's preaching . . .

Acts 10:42-43

And he commanded us to preach unto the people (Jews), and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Paul's preaching . . .

1 Corinthians 15:1-4

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Paul's salvation message is nothing like Peter's!

That is a FACT!