John Chapter 5 Discussion Page 4

Carlos ...

The Jews were going to be the means by which The Gentiles would come to the knowledge of God, but guess what, they rejected the Christ of God.

SO, God uses a Jew named Saul of Tarsus to reveal to us how to be saved today!

Romans through Philemon is our doctrine, and the rest of The Word Of God is for our learning.

Christendom can't handle the fact that Christ came in the flesh for Israel, but guess what, Jesus Christ had to die for Israel first and die for the Gentiles which is God's perfect solution for a sin cursed world.

I study The Word of God because God tells us to, and I am afraid many believers don't know the difference between Israel's Program and The Body Of Christ Program given to Paul to give to US!

I am sticking to the doctrine that Jesus Christ revealed to Paul ...

For by GRACE are ye SAVED through faith!

I am going to know the difference in The Word of God from what God wrote to ISRAEL and what God wrote to ME.

Church tradition has taught people wrong.

Communion, The Passover, the priesthood, and water baptism is ALL JEWISH.

Our meat and drink and baptism is all SPIRITUAL. NOT PHYSICAL.

1 Corinthians 12:13

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Paul had a hard time convincing people about GRACE and it is NO different today.

One day people are going to be ashamed because they did NOT listen to Paul.

2 Timothy 2:15

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

You bring up good points, Ann Hering. But the teaching is skewed and lacks understanding of history. You should reexamine it. Some argue everything is for the Jews, which means, Christians do not benefit from or need 90% of the NT. If Christ was directing His message to the Jews, what are we doing here? When Jesus said to Nicodemus, a Jew, you must be born again, by what you are being taught, it only applies to Jews. So, only Jews can be Christians? But Paul says that Jesus Himself told him it applies to Gentiles. Same for Sermon on the Mount. Is that only for Jews? So after we tear every page in the NT that doesn't apply to Christians, what are we left with?

Paul spends a lot of time talking to Jews. He even equates Baptism with Circumcision. And what about the Passover? Only Jews were present. Do we not celebrate communion as Christians?

The teaching that many books or sections of the NT are for Jews is a gross misconception of the message of the Cross. Christ came to die for all. In Jesus there is neither Jew nor Greek.

But think about what Paul says. We have been grafted in. And if grafted into the Tree, we become a part of it. That means, in essence, Christians are also part of the Tree of Israel. We too are Jewish by adoption.

Of course, that is not exactly what Paul meant. We are a continuation of the Promise. And Israel has been blinded so Christ could be crucified. But there still remains a Promise to Israel.

Nevertheless, you can't skirt the fact the entire Bible was written as God's message to all of us. But It was God's choice to employ the Jews to do it. Think of it this way. God created a company called the Jewish People, through whom to supply the rest of the world with a product called the Law, God's Word. But because the Law was not as effective a product as it should be, it was replaced by a better product called Christ, who is irreplaceable. But to get this better product called Christ, the company had to go through a process.

Ann Jesus in bible book Revelation 2:9 - I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Jesus speaking to the Pharisee Jews - Bible book of John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

48 Then answered the Jews

Then answered the Jews

Then answered the Jews

Then answered the Jews

pretty obvious who Jesus called of their father the DEVIL.

Remember Abraham's children by Hagar, Sarah, and Keturah represents "many" nations.

Abraham is considered to be the progenitor of MANY NATIONS mentioned in the Bible, the Israelites, Ishmaelites ( Genesis 25:12-18) Edomites ( Genesis 36:1-43]) Amalekites ( Genesis 36:12-16) Kenizzites ( Genesis 36:9-16) Midianites and Assyrians ( Genesis 25:1-5) and through his nephew Lot he was also related to the Moabites and Ammonites.

Believers IN CHRIST, by believing that Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins, was buried and rose again, all by grace through faith, WE get the PROMISE by FAITH just like Abraham!

Galatians 3:18

For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Galatians 3:29

And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Abraham is not our father by progeny, but is our father by his example of FAITH!

Romans 4:16

Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all.

The story of Jacob and Rachel ended tragically, as Rachel died giving birth to her second child, Benjamin.

Rachel named him Ben-Oni ("son of my trouble"), but Jacob renamed him Benjamin ("son of my right hand").

Jacob and Rachel's son Benjamin is a picture in type of Jesus Christ.

Remember Rachel had been barren but finally conceives a son, Joseph, another picture in type of Jesus Christ because he is rejected by his brothers.

Rachel conceives the 2nd Time With Benjamin, and has "trouble" because she dies in childbirth.

Jacob renames Ben-Oni, Son Of Trouble, TO Ben-Jamin, Son Of My Strength, which depicts Jesus' 2nd Coming.

Jacobs trouble is that he stole his firstborn brother Esau's birthright. Esau sold it for a bowl of Mom's soup. Jacob trucked his Dad into thinking he was hairy, Esau. Jacob got the firstborns blessing. Esau chased him, to kill him.

God was angry at Esau for doing that.

Genesis 27 to 28. Read slow; there is a covenant mentioned.

Ann, In Gal 2:7 Paul is not teaching there are 2 Gospels. That's a misunderstanding. He is simply saying Peter presented the one and only Gospel to one group and Paul handled the other group. Peter had the Middle East. Paul had Greece and Italy. Paul himself cautions that there is no other Gospel, Gal 1:8 - "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be under a curse!"

See Eph 4:4-6, "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all."

Again in 1 Cor 12:13 - "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."

The use of the word dispensation is not the same as Dispensationalism. There has been a lot of debate over what Dispensationalists believe with respect to Israel, the Church and a Promise that remains to Israel. While the outline of historical "dispensations" is helpful to put Biblical History in perspective, assertions that some things in the NT are for Jews and others for Followers of Christ, are misguided. Hebrews, for example, was written for Christians with a Jewish background. It was not written for Jews or Synagogues. Neither was the Sermon on the Mount for Jews. Its universal principles apply to all. Contrary to the belief of some, Christ was not giving Jews instructions for the Millenium.

Gal 2:15-16 - "We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

Although In Rom 11, Paul makes it clear God still has a commitment to the Jews.

God promised Abraham he would be the Father of MANY NATIONS.

Gen 17:5 - Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of MANY many nations have I made thee.

If the "Jews" are all of Abraham, where are all these MANY "jewish nations"...?

There is only one and it was created by the antichrist United Nations and one is not many.

Either God lied (impossible) or the Jews are not all of Israel.

Where are the MANY JEWISH NATIONS of Abraham?

Judah and Israel were not the same people. God divorced Israel and not Judah. One tribe is not many

Jeremiah 3:8 - And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of DIVORCE; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

The Lord DIVORCED ISRAEL

Israel and judah had wars and different kings as well as different capitols. Jerusalem capitol of Judah.

Samaria capitol of Israel.

2 Kings 8:16 ...Joram the son of Ahab KING of ISRAEL, Jehoshaphat being then KING of JUDAH, ...

1 Kings 21:1 ....had a vineyard, which was in Jezreel, hard by the PALACE of Ahab KING of SAMARIA.

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

this verse says a new covenant with both Israel AND Judah. So how can they be the same?

Hosea 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

Romans 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Galatians 3:29. - And if ye be Christ's, then ARE ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Carlos ...

The entire Word of God was written by Jews and was written to the Jews, with exception of The Apostle Paul, The Apostle of The GENTILES.

That is YOU!

The Revelation is a book of PROPHECY ... to The 7 Churches of Asia that existed during Paul's day.

Revelation 1:3

Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this PROPHECY, and keep those things written therein: for the time is at hand.

You see, The Tribulation was right around the corner for those Jews living during Paul's day, and the books Hebrews through The Revelation are written to prepare the Jews for the SOON Tribulation.

BUT, what happened? How come it DID NOT happen right away?

Answer: Paul and The Body Of Christ

These 7 churches of Asia were JEWISH . . . 7 Candlesticks, Angels, Works, Synagogue, Doctrine of Balaam, Hidden Manna, White Stone, Jezebel, White Linen, Priests, Key of David, New Jerusalem, The Lamb, Lion from The Tribe Of Judah, and on and on.

None of The Revelation has anything to do with YOU!

Thank goodness!

Hebrews - The Last Days, Prophets, Throne, Anointed With Oil, Heirs Of Salvation, Signs and Wonders, To Call Them Brethren, Seed Of Abraham, Bondage, Make reconciliation for the sins of the people, Moses, House, Provocation, and on and on . . . ALL JEWISH.

James . . . To the Twelve Tribes Scattered ... JEWISH!

Peter . . . To the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia . . . ALL JEWISH!

123 John . . . Unto The ELECT Lady ISRAEL . . . JEWISH!

Jude . . . Feasts, Error Of Balaam, Egypt, Moses, Angels, Garment spotted, Last Time, Looking for the Mercy . . . JEWISH!

The Tribulation . . . The Time Of Jacobs TROUBLE!

WHEN did Jacob have TROUBLE?

The 1st 7 years Jacob worked for Leah... the 2nd 7 years Jacob worked for Rachel, whom he loved, that was TROUBLE! The Kingdom promised to Abraham and David will come and The Jews will inherit The Earth!

God is going to KEEP HIS PROMISE!

comment by Alex on 2 separate gospels 1 for the Jews and 1 for th Gentiles 1st cor. 12 v 13 for by 1 spirit are we all baptised into the body of Christ whether we be jew or gentile, bond or free. ETC. so much for that 2 sepatate gospels doctrine.

I stress understanding of God's Purpose for Creation, because without it, many things in Scripture don't make sense. Why, for example did God create the Jewish Nation? Did God just look around for some group that looked good to Him and selected them to show them love? What about the rest of humanity? Doesn't God love them too? Let me explain. God created the Jews from Abraham for:

1. The Law

2. Christ

The only two reasons for the existence of the Jews, was so Christ could enter into a broken world, deemed wicked by the Law. There is a thread that ties all of the Bible together from front cover to back cover. From before God created anything, God started threading the needle of history with Christ. Christ is that thread that holds all things together. If you take a needle and thread, tie a knot at the end of it and shove it from Genesis 1, page by page, chapter by chapter, book by book, through to Revelation 22, you will see that the thread is Jesus. He was before all things and created all things. God the savior of mankind existed before Adam and Eve fell. God threaded the needle in eternity, before He created time/space. And God started sewing the fabric of history with Jesus from Genesis to Revelation.

When we see that the people of Israel, the Chosen People, were created with a specific Purpose, that Christ would come into the world through them, the rest of the story falls in perspective. Creation is about Christ. The Bible is the story of Christ from before the beginning of time 2 Tim 1:9, Heb 10:5, Matt 1, Rev 22.

The time of the Rapture is really inconsequential. What our focus should be is in that Christ is Coming Back. The Bible is the history of Christ. The Rapture is about His triumphant return to earth.

Ann Hering. With respect to the "Mystery", Paul is not the only one to use that expression. In Rev 1:20, 17:5, 7 the Angel reveals a mystery of the end times. In Daniel 2:22, 30, 47 God reveals a mystery. A mystery is something we don't yet know or understand. In Isa 44: God tells us He is going to reveal things that have not happened. See also Amos 3:7.

Sometimes well-intentioned people teach things that seem true, but are wrong. As stated before, the Bible never segregates the Tribulation as an event that will only affect Jews. The New Testament letters were written for the Church, not for the Jews. It is God's message to us who believe, 1 Cor 1. Paul and Peter were adamant about not returning to Judaism, 2 Peter 2:22.

Perhaps Hebrews 6:4, 6, 10:26 can shed some light on this. There remains no Sacrifice for anyone that thinks they can be saved by returning to Judaism. And if that is the case, why would God nullify Christ's ultimate sacrifice on the Cross, to punish the Jews for 7 years? Sacrifices, by Jews or anyone else are worthless. So why would God want to restore them as a means for Salvation in the Tribulation? The doctrine that the Tribulation is for the Jews, absent Christians, is a fabrication that doesn't meet the test of reality. God works within the framework of reality, not fiction.

If you can show where the Bible says the Tribulation is for the Jews, please do. But first, you must deal with Matthew 24:29, 2 Tim 2, which set the stage for every other mention of the 2nd Coming and the Rapture. We know from the mouth of Jesus that He is coming Immediately After the Great Tribulation. It remains to be shown that He is coming before that for a Rapture. But if there is a place in Scripture that says otherwise, please point to it. I can tell you now, you won't find it. Every mention of a Rapture scenario follows the description in Matt 24.

Furthermore, don't believe the lie that some of the books of the NT are for the Jews. They are not.

Carlos ... Dispensation is a word that God uses.

Paul tells us that there were 2 GOSPELS!

Galatians 2:7

But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the UNCIRCUMCISION was committed unto me (Paul), as the gospel of the CIRCUMCISION was unto Peter.

God is "dispensing" GRACE today. Israel's salvation in the past was based on works!

BIG DIFFERENCE!

God hid THE MYSTERY in time past BUT NOW has made known to US through Paul.

Read these VERSES very carefully . . .

Ephesians 3:1-9

For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you GENTILES,

If ye have heard of the DISPENSATION of the GRACE OF GOD which is given me to you-ward:

How that by revelation he made known unto me THE MYSTERY; (as I wrote afore in few words,

Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in THE MYSTERY OF CHRIST)

Which in other ages was NOT MADE KNOWN unto the sons of God, as it is NOW revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

That the GENTILES should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by THE GOSPEL:

Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the GRACE OF GOD given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is THIS GRACE given, that I should preach among the GENTILES the unsearchable riches of Christ;

And to make ALL MEN SEE what IS the fellowship of THE MYSTERY, which from the beginning of the world hath been HID IN GOD, who created all things by Jesus Christ.

Rapture IS A MYSTERY and saved BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH IS A MYSTERY!

The Word of God is CLEAR on this!

You and I ARE GENTILES, and we had better listen to Paul and get our doctrine from him!

Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David had to DO WORKS (whatever God told them to do) THEN they FOUND GRACE in the eyes of The LORD!

That is NOT how we get SAVED!

Ann Hering, 1st of all, the idea that Christians will not go through the Tribulation, is a relatively modern notion. It is also closely tied to a Dispensationalist program that is also a modern invention. That program is not found in the Bible. On its surface, it does give you a picture of a somewhat historical development of Biblical events, but with many flaws. Out of it comes this idea that we are in the Dispensation or period of Grace that will come to an end. The fact is, the Grace and Mercy of God was always in effect and will never come to an end, Gal 3:21.

Salvation is based on Christ and Christ's death never comes to an end. That Christ died and we can be saved by calling on Him will always be true. And the Holy Spirit is never taken away. There is no Gospel for the Jews as distinct from a Gospel for the Gentiles. 2 These 2 is clear that both Rapture and 2nd Coming are concurrent events for those that follow Christ. There is no distinction between Jew and non-Jew. Paul tells us there is no other Gospel, Gal 2:21.

Many churches teach there will be a period of Tribulation just for the Jews. Therefore, Christians must be taken out of the earth. To get there they read things into Scripture that just aren't there. Christ never even alluded to that. Neither did any of the Apostles. We are saved by Grace. If the Law and Sacrifices could save, Christ would not have been necessary. Christ died once and for all. There is no Dispensational 7th Week of Daniel outlined in the Bible. He is just telling us what is going to happen to all of us. Lk 19:10.

There is a misunderstanding of the Book of Revelation, the Tribulation Period, Judgement and Wrath. A study of Revelation will show the Day of the Lord and Wrath are specific to the last hour of the Tribulation. Many confuse it with the entire 7 year period. Revelation gives you a panorama of history, then starts shrinking it down to the last moment, which is when God pours out His Wrath. Rom 1:17.

Context, context, context!

You have to know what was going on during Paul's day. There were Jews during Paul's ministry that wanted to put people under The Law ( Acts 15:1), and Paul warned them not to believe in ANY OTHER Gospel 1 Cor 15:1-4.

John The Baptist preached this gospel to ISRAEL ...

Matthew 3:1-2

In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Acts 19:4

Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

Jesus Christ preached The Gospel of the Kingdom to ISRAEL.

Matthew 4:17

From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 4:23

And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

The Tribulation Gospel will be preached in the future to ISRAEL after The Body of Christ is taken out of here.

You see, WHAT Israel had to believe during Jesus' ministry is NOT The Gospel Paul preached to Jews and Gentiles in this Age of Grace.

Paul's Gospel is THE GOSPEL 1 Cor 15:1-4 we need to believe to be saved today!

Ann, Galatians Chapter 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Seems to me there is only ONE GOSPEL and Paul writes that any that teaches contrary to this is cursed.

Paul is the only ONE in The Word of God that says, "Behold, I shew you a MYSTERY."

The Tribulation is a prophesied event for ISRAEL.

The Rapture is a MYSTERY for The Body Of Christ!

Jesus Christ reveals to Paul a NEW program.

Paul has a NEW Gospel in this Age of GRACE 1 Cor 15:1-4, believing that Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins, was buried and rose again, and we are SAVED all by grace through faith in that alone!

The Body of Christ has to be out of the way so that God can resume His prophetic program with Israel called The Tribulation.

Paul tells us The Body of Christ is saved from the wrath to come.

Romans 5:9

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

The Tribulation Gospel is NOT going to be good!

Revelation 14:7

Saying with a loud voice, FEAR God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his JUDGMENT is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

NO MORE GRACE in The Tribulation!

The Body of Christ SAVED today by The Gospel Of GRACE will be Raptured and then God deals with ISRAEL with The Tribulation with the everlasting Gospel.

The Rapture for The Body Of Christ and The Tribulation for ISRAEL; TWO Completely Different Programs for TWO Completely Different groups, with TWO Completely Different GOSPELS!

Ann Hering, Amen, very well said!!!

Amen, very well said!!!

Carlos: can't we agree to disagree?

JESUS said watch and be ready; keep your lamps filled with oil of the Holy Spirit. Period.

Ann Hering, The Bible is clear. See Matthew 24:29. There are differences of opinion on when Christ will return and if there will be an appearing before the coming. But the Scriptures are specific. See 2 Timothy 2. Perhaps you are right and we will be taken away before what Christ calls the Great Tribulation. That would be very nice, but it is unrealistic. Not only that, it is not Biblical.

If you take everything that is said about the Rapture and the 2nd Coming and separate them, which the Bible does not do, you are left with the same thing. Everything that is said about the Rapture falls in line with what is said about the Coming. If we say Paul distinguishes between these two events, we would contradict what he says.

1. The Bible never says the Rapture is before the Tribulation.

2. The Bible says that Christ said the Rapture is Immediately After the Tribulation.

3. The same events are attached to both (Trumpets, Clouds, Gathering, In the Air, Angels, Thief in the Night).

Where does the Bible contradict the words of Christ in Matthew 24:29?

Where does the Bible specifically say the Rapture is before the Tribulation?

But what is the real significance of what Christ and Paul said? Why is it important for Christians to know the truth about when the Rapture will take place?

I think I know the arguments, but if you list them, we can all discuss them one by one.

God judged sin on The Cross of Jesus Christ. God is not judging sin today, IF He was, we would all be zapped every time we sin!

John 16:33 was Jesus talking TO ISRAEL. Not us. Israel was going to be scattered very soon at the stoning of Stephen.

Israel is the Bride. We are the Body Of Christ. Big Difference. Satan is the "god" of this world and he is having his way with man and religion!

Paul is the only one in The Word Of God, Romans through Philemon, that tells you what your doctrine is today for this Age of Grace and salvation by grace by believeing in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

One day, The Body of Christ will be taken, and then God is going to resume His prophetic program with Israel, and The Tribulation will culminate with the 2nd Coming Of Jesus Christ so ISRAEL will believe in THEIR Messiah, then The Millennial Reign of Jesus Christ on this earth; The Kingdom God promised to Abraham, then into eternity.

Read Paul's letters to find out that all our sins are forgiven, past present and future just by believing The Gospel 1 Cor 15:1-4 the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, all by grace through faith, no works, no law, just what Jesus Christ did for US!

Two different programs. Israel and The Body of Christ. Paul tells us in 2 Tim 2:15 . . . Rightly Dividing The Word Of Truth; that WAY you know what is for ISRAEL and what is for The Body Of Christ.

Remember Jesus came for the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel ( Matthew 10:6) Jesus was a minister of the circumcision ( Romans 15:8) Jesus came in the flesh for Israel ( Romans 9:5).

One day, God is going to gather ALL, BOTH Israel and The Body Of Christ, in ONE!

Ephesians 1:10

That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are in earth; even in him.

I read something last night just really endeared The Lord to me. It was after the flood and Noah and his family were leaving the Ark.

I was reading & noted Genesis 8:20-22 and 9:8-17

In verse 21-22: And the Lord Smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said IN HIS HEART, I will not again curse the GROUND anymore for mans sake, for the imaginations of mans heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite anymore every thing living, as I have done.

While the earth remaineth seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat; and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease. ( Jeremiah 33:25)

The token of the covenant of is the rainbow.

There was no anger. Sorrow in his heart.

What hurts us, hurts him.

How many times have we wept; why is this happening to me? Why didn't You stop it?

How so the earth groans for it's redemption. As should we all...

The point that most forget is that the coming horror upon the Earth is not A Tribulation, but THE GREAT Tribulation. There is a difference: Jn 16:33 tells us that in the world you will have tribulation, which must include our daily troubles whether small or big, as well as those who are burned at the stake for Jesus' sake. But the Great Tribulation is only attributed to God's Wrath & Judgement upon sinful mankind.

And God's Wrath has been seen in the past, in The Flood, at Sodom & Gomorrah, in God's dealings with idolatrous Israel. We have not seen His Full Wrath yet post Calvary, even though some claim that our natural devastating phenomena, including viruses, or the Holocaust are examples. The next time God moves in this way, will be at the time of the End of this age, & will be with Fire & not Flood ( 2 Pet 3:5-7).

So, can we presume that God will then have to judge His people, the Church, Christ's Bride, a second time for their sinful nature & ways? Or, will He take out (rapture) His Church (having already been judged & redeemed), so that His Wrath will be seen & felt by all unbelievers to the fulfilment of prophecy?

He will see his Mother again. A joyful reunion.

The Tribulation is not happening now. The Tribulation is the Time of Jacob's (Israel's) Trouble. That is a prophetic event. We are not in prophecy.

The Apostle Paul was buffeted by Satan because he preached The Gospel Of The Grace of God, believing that Jesus Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose again, all by grace through faith in that alone!

Satan hates the preaching of the cross of Jesus Christ. Religion hates the preaching of the finished work of the cross for salvation. That is why Paul was beaten, stoned, and sorely mistreated because of The Gospel ( 1 Cor 15:1-4)

Today no prophecy! The Body Of Christ will be taken out of here before God resumes His prophetic program with ISRAEL during The Tribulation!

There was a fullblood Indian mother that had never been to church or heard the word of God. Her son was born again, repented, believed on Jesus, he told her about Jesus and how she could be saved, that she should repent and believe, she asked her son can he (JESUS) understand my Cherokee language? He said yes mom he understands and she was saved and believed on Jesus. --- in the early 1920's - 30

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Ann Hering - You should try tell the Christians in many other countries today that the Christians will be gone before tribulation (not wrath) they are burning them alive, killing them today in very terrible ways. I would name several countries but may not be allowed to post.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (the word after has one meaning = not before)

God has NOT cast away His people Israel!

Romans 11:1

I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham of the tribe of Benjamin.

Israel stumbled at the cross, and fell at the stoning of Stephen.

BUT through their (Israel's) fall, salvation came to the Gentiles through the apostle Paul and the gospel, believing in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, all by grace through faith.

God will resume His prophetic program with Israel after The Body Of Christ is raptured (taken) out of the way.

Jesus Christ is Creator God.

Lucifer is a created being.

Not the same!