John Chapter 5 Discussion Page 6

>You say you can be tempted to sin and the Holy Spirit can convict you, but you can still choose to sin?

Absolutely, that's the definition of freewill. If you believe a Christian is incapable of being tempted and sinning then you don't believe in freewill, which defeats the whole purpose of life on earth and Jesus dying on the cross for you so that you have the opportunity to CHOOSE whether you want to follow Him or not, and if you do then you everyday make the same decision on whether you want to continue to follow Him. It's not a one time task that you check off your list then go back to being in the world. It's a life transforming decision that requires regular discipline. If avoiding sin was automatic then why do Christians struggle with sin so much both in the Bible and today? Paul described his struggle in Romans 7:19. If he was incapable of sin then he wouldn't struggle. If followers couldn't sin Jesus wouldn't have warned his disciples so many times to avoid sin and be obedient and wouldn't have taught them or others so many lessons.

>a true genuine believer cannot live a lifestyle of continuous sin, the lifestyle they lived prior to salvation. It's impossible.

If impossible then why does it happen so often? It sounds like if someone sins beyond a certain point then you don't believe they are a Christian. Why is that? Who do you think is a Christian then? Is someone who repents, confesses, believes Jesus is Lord, is baptized and follows Him a genuine-enough Christian? What if they later turn from Christianity, were they suddenly never a 'genuine' Christian then? Since you don't know anyone's future actions can you ever be 100% sure of anyone being a 'genuine believer'? I believe the Bible is clear that anyone can be saved and can start their journey to follow Jesus and are a Christian. They still have freewill though and some later turn away. Maybe you've never met them but some Christians do this. Hebrews 6:4 Hope this helps.

Hi Jesse, I appreciate your time in sharing your perspective. My interest is how someone justifies the once saved, always saved belief when so many scriptures do not appear to support that idea. I'm a Christian saved by grace and I believe Christianity is an active religion involving following Jesus, which requires pursuing Him, not standing still or running the opposite way. I also believe in freewill just like the Bible says and believe that Christians can commit blasphemy and there are examples of that happening today in addition to those in the Bible. I believe there's a dangerous trend where people are told in some churches that it's ok to not try, to not obey Jesus, to not care, that it's ok to sin as much as they want with no consequence.

For instance since Hitler attended mass while growing up and may have accepted Christ during that time before he became an atheist, and this OSAS teaching would say his later actions are all covered by grace according to this teaching. The Bible says most people will go to hell Matthew 7:13 and there's currently 2.5 billion claiming to be Christians and if they all made it in that would be a very wide gate. A % don't follow Jesus anymore and love committing sodomy, fornication, lust, drunkenness, murder, and variety of sins. Some do this because they believe a teaching that says they'll already go to heaven so their sins don't matter. So, I think souls will be lost due to the OSAS teaching which doesn't seem to be from God or supported by scripture. All other questions seem to be distractions from this important salvation issue. I believe exactly what Jesus says that many will be surprised they learn they won't go to heaven: Matthew 7:13. The audience Jesus spoke to was both non-Christian and Christian, but that specific verse was talking to people who believed they were a Christian follower and thought they would be saved. James 2 explains this.

Adam, you have freewill, yes? How do you exercise your free will? I've already explained how I exercise mine. If you believe your "freewill" is stronger than God's will for your life, go ahead and put it to the test. Everyone I've come across that believes salvation can be lost always bring up freewill and they say that those who believe in eternal security think they can go out and sin all they want. Why is that? You say you can be tempted to sin and the Holy Spirit can convict you, but you can still choose to sin?

Every believer can be tempted to sin, and every believer does commit single acts of sin. However, a true genuine believer cannot live a lifestyle of continuous sin, the lifestyle they lived prior to salvation. It's impossible. I tried to explain my view to you, but this becoming Hitler, committing mass murder, and worshipping Satan doesn't even come close to the view I presented to you.

And why do you believe Judas was a Christian? I would like to know how you come to that conclusion. Judas betrayed Christ because it was prophesied that he would. When God prophesies something, it will happen. And Peter was told ahead of time that he would deny Christ. Peter learned his lesson, wouldn't you say? Why did Jesus ask Peter three times "Do you love me?" Since you say both Judas and Peter were Christians, and one denied Christ, and one betrayed Him, did they lose their salvation?

Let me ask you this. What makes a person a Christian? Can a person be a Christian if they don't have the Spirit of Christ living in them?

Let me give you another answer you ask of me. You ask why do we see Christian pastors and worship leaders periodically leave and denounce the faith? Many professing believers do leave and denounce the faith. I don't disagree with that. But you want to know why they leave. 1 John 2:19 tells you why. They leave because they were not genuine believers. Pretty simple!

I hope you take the time to answer my questions, as I have answered yours.

I know I'm a sinner saved by Grace. I'm conscious of it day and night. I never forget what God pulled me out of. I know at the Cross, my sins past, present and future have been thrown as far as the east is to the west. When I sin, I pray from 1 John. I thank God that his mercies are new every morning. I turn off media and turn on praise. I believe in "I will keep in perfect peace whose mind has stayed on Me. For me God is at my house every day. I'm conscious of His presence. There are times when I mumble what the speed limit is, but I just move out of the way & don't get upset. I actually pray for those people to find Jesus. We have choices. I've had my fill of worldliness long time ago. I'm content. I love my family and play with my grand son, often as I can. I used to read him Psalms at nap time. I tell him Bible stories. Somewhere in this world system we all live in, is the great whore of Babylon. I avoid that contamination much as possible.

We all fall short of perfect, but God gave us Jesus our Lord. Each one of us choose the narrow gate or the wide one, every day.

I love studying in this discussion group. It gives me a lot of encouragement to widen my scope when it's just me and a Bible. Seeing what troubles other people, helps me to pray better. When I was unsaved, I used to sit in the dark and rock, and pray over and over, "somebody help me." The first thing God did for me, was peel me like an onion. Everything I trusted in was removed. It lasted a year and a half. Then I was ready to meet my Savior.

How do you turn your back on that? I'm grateful. There's a sense of Divine romance. You tell Him your stories (which He already knows) and you read His stories in his Word. It should get sweeter and deeper.

Contending with compromise diminishes the sweetness. It doesn't matter if you're male or female.

God is exactly what the unsaved sinners want. Someone they can trust. Good night all.

Adam, you've asked me several questions today, and I have respectfully answered all your questions so far. But before I answer anymore, I think it would be fair for me to ask you a few, and I hope you would in turn give me the time I gave you.

If you are saved, which I believe you are, but since we cannot save ourselves, once you were saved and until the day you depart this earthly life, who are you trusting in to remain saved, yourself, or God?

What does it mean to you to surrender your life to Christ?

Who are you placing your trust in as far as your salvation goes, God, or yourself?

Do you personally yourself believe that between now and the time you depart this earthly life, you will reject Christ and turn away?

If you yourself one day decide to reject Christ and turn back to being a slave to sin, because a person is either a slave to Christ or a slave to sin, how are you going to get rid of Christ inside of you when He said He will never leave you?

What is your understanding of the phrase "sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption?"

And to the moderators of this site, thank you so much for adding more character space. God Bless!

I can just tell you how I differentiate. Every single day of my life, I have to make choices. And at the end of each day, I have to ask myself "What was that all about?" You list several things here, and for each one of those things, we can ask ourselves if it is Christ leading us to do those things or not. There are many things we do in life on a daily basis that are not spiritual, but worldly. There are necessities in life. And I believe we are to use the things/necessities in this world. We're just not to overuse them. In other words, we're not to let the things of this world control us and cause us to lose focus of the race that is set before us. A few verses that come to mind would be Gal 5:16-25, Rom 8:9, Rom 8:12-14, Colossians 1:9-10, Psalm 42:1-2, 2 Cor 10:4.

>we have to differentiate between spirit and flesh

Do you have a reliable way to differentiate and what Bible verse sources? In your view does everything you say or do in life have such a spirit / flesh separation? How do you know if driving a car, eating, taking a shower, watching news, typing comments on the computer is ever spiritual or flesh?

Hi Jessie, thanks for the comments. I still don't understand your views. It sounds like you said you believe a Christian has freewill, but it also seems that saying it's impossible for a Christian to commit blasphemy of the holy spirit or to purposefully commit evil or to deny Jesus. There's both empirical evidence of Christians doing that today and Christians in the Bible doing that so it seems like an unusual position to take that it's somehow impossible as if Christians, as if they no longer have freewill, despite the verses and evidence that they do. If the spirit 'wont allow' something that's not really freewill. Can you see how that would seem contradictory to someone? I can be tempted to sin and the holy spirit can convict me, but I can still choose to sin, same with who I worship, same with following Jesus.

If this were true, why did the Christians Peter and Judas both deny/betray Jesus? Why do we see Christian pastors and worship leaders periodically leave and denounce the faith? Even angels have freewill in heaven to sin, so doesn't it seem unusual to believe that Christians are somehow prevented from having freewill to commit certain sins when evidence shows otherwise?

The second thing that doesn't appear to make sense is the view a Christian is saved regardless. The Christian can become Hitler and commit mass murder, worship satan, and do whatever he wants and is still saved and goes to heaven, according to that view. - OR - you maybe you'd say 'that's unlikely' or 'impossible' that the spirit doesn't allow that. Then you would once again be claiming a Christian doesn't have freewill. These views don't seem to reconcile.

Have you prayed to God and asked Him to confirm if this is true?

Adam,

The reason why it can't be both is because God does not recognize or reward us for anything we do apart from His Spirit persuading us to do. In other words, we have to differentiate between spirit and flesh. Are we doing something because He's persuading us to do it, or are we doing it out of our own human effort and ambition? Romans 14:23 says "for whatsoever is not of faith is sin. If we understand that biblical faith is produced by God's Spirit, not us, and that faith literally means persuasion, then we can ask ourselves, am I doing this because God's Spirit in me is persuading me to do it (Faith), or am I doing it out of my own human ambition? One of these, God is not going to recognize!

Hello Adam,

I just finished answering your other question you asked me. You're giving me a workout today, and I do appreciate it. I always find a blessing in every discussion I have with other believers, whether I agree with them or not. I respect your view, I truly do. And I hope you would respect mine. You are correct in saying that Satan likes to deceive. But He still can't take us away from Christ. In order for him to do that, he would have to penetrate God's Spirit that lives in us, and it is impossible for him to do that. Greater is He that is in us, then he that is in the world. Do you know that there is (only one) weapon that Satan uses against a believer? Only one!

Do I think there's no downside to Christians following the world of sin? ( Romans 12:2)

"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."

I think there's a tremendous downside. But scripture tells us that we are not of this world. Our citizenship is in heaven. Being transformed is an inward transformation, a permanent and complete change. And the change comes by the renewing of our mind. God is not impressed with our performance. He wants to change us and transform us here so that we can take it with us when we leave. God wants to transform me and change me from within. And it's permanent! I take it with me. But I am to take care how I build. Some build with wood, hay, and stubble, and some with gold, silver, and precious stones. And no, how I build does not determine my salvation. But what's not of Him, it will burn in the fire.

I hope I've answered all you've asked?

How do I feel about Luke 12:9? "But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God."

I've heard this twisted before and some will say that if you don't confess Christ publicly that you are denying Him. That is not what it says!

This is important to understand. The word "deny," ARNEOMAI, means to reject. The early church believers were put in a position where they either had to confess that Jesus is Lord or that Caesar is lord.

And by doing that, they would be denying that Jesus is Lord. So in order for this to be true, one of two things has to happen. You have to confess Jesus, or, you have to deny Him, reject Him!

Have you rejected Him? I haven't!

I will answer your last question on Romans 12:2 next.

Hi Jesse, to me the scripture is crystal clear. One of our views is right and one of our views is wrong. It's not both. One of them has lots of scriptural support, is consistent throughout the Bible, is logical and the other isn't. Satan likes to deceive and since you think my view is wrong, do you think it's likely that satan has gone out of his way to convince Christians to be more obedient than they need to be, to maybe love Jesus more than they need to, to love others more than necessary, or help others more than needed. So, satan's great deception is to trick Christians into being 'gooder' than they need to. - or - is the deception that satan wants you to not fear God, to not obey Jesus like we're commanded to, to not try, to spread this idea to others that they don't need to do anything, don't need to go to church, don't need to do anything good, that its ok to sin as much as you want, because only grace saves. Wonder in which of those two options satan is most likely to deceive.

Hi Jessie,

>I do not "try to be obedient" because that takes human effort. My flesh will never be in obedience to Christ, so why try? I am not obedient to Him because of any human effort on my part. I am obedient to Him because of what His Spirit is doing in my life. Do I choose to be obedient to Christ, or do I choose to be obedient to my flesh? There is a battle that takes place between my flesh and the Spirit of Christ who dwells in me.

I don't understand what you wrote there with human effort vs spirit. In any given choice you make or action you take in life I'm not sure which you assign to your human action or holy spirit. Why can't it be both? You agree Christians have freewill to choose good or evil, right? Is it not your own choice whether you sin or not? Do you claim 100% responsibility for your actions or do you assign it to a spirit? And how do you know which of the things you think, say, do, decide is human vs spirit?

How do I feel about John 14:15? "If ye love me, keep my commandments." Some of the Greek texts, instead of a command, it is the Future Tense. If you love me, YOU WILL keep my commandments. Isn't that interesting? Everything in our relationship with Jesus Christ is based on love. I already said this, but I'll say it again. We make decisions based on who and what we love the most. When I have to make a decision between two things, it's which one I prefer, like, or love. Sometimes we have to decide between studying the word, or going to some activity we really love. We will make decisions on who we love the most and what we love the most. Jesus says if you love me, and in the Greek text, it is a Third Class Condition yet fulfilled, meaning if you love me YOU WILL keep my commandments. Period! Jesus is not giving us a challenge to prove our love for Him. He's giving us a statement of fact, YOU WILL! The reason we don't obey Him is because we love something/someone else more. More to come!

How do I feel about James 2:17-26? If we are talking about faith without works is a dead faith, then I totally agree. But to understand what it means, you have to have an understanding of what the bible means by faith. Please give me your definition of faith. You and I cannot produce the faith the bible speaks of. All we can produce is flesh. The faith the bible speaks of is spiritual faith. Only God's Spirit can produce spiritual faith ( Galatians 5:22). The works that come from us come from the persuasion of God's Spirit persuading us to do those things. But it is His work, not ours. He gets all the glory. ( Ephesians 2:8-9).

Again, due to space, I'll answer your other questions on John 14:15, Luke 12:9, and Romans 12:2 next.

Have I read the whole chapter? That doesn't deserve an answer. But let's look at Hebrews 10:26. First of all, the book was written to the Jews, Hebrew people. It was not written to the church. For a Jew or Hebrew person to turn away from Judaism and receive Christ meant severe persecution would follow. "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins." Receiving knowledge of the truth doesn't save a person. Did you ever notice in the gospels that whenever huge crowds would follow Jesus, and He would turn around and preach truth to them, they would leave? They received knowledge/ truth from Christ, but they turned away. "Oh, I'm going to suffer if I surrender to you? I'm out of here!"

Do you see what the writer is telling them? You received the truth about salvation, but if you turn back to Judaism because it is easier than surrendering to Christ because of persecution, there is no more sacrifice for your sin.

You ask me "What is your reason for living life as a Christian or trying to be obedient to Jesus, if it has nothing to do with going to heaven?"

I never said obedience had nothing to do with going to heaven. Where did that come from? I do not "try to be obedient" because that takes human effort. My flesh will never be in obedience to Christ, so why try? I am not obedient to Him because of any human effort on my part. I am obedient to Him because of what His Spirit is doing in my life. Do I choose to be obedient to Christ, or do I choose to be obedient to my flesh? There is a battle that takes place between my flesh and the Spirit of Christ who dwells in me. Which one are you yourself obedient to? Who do you submit to, Christ, or your flesh?

Space running out, more to follow.

My answer to your first question is yes, that is my position. If you understand what takes place at the point of salvation, then maybe you'll see why I take that position. Free will? We're allowed to make decisions. But every decision we make is based on what or who we love the most. We either submit to the persuasion of God's Spirit telling us what He wants us to do, or we submit to what our flesh wants to do. Which one do you submit to? You say some "Christians" turn to evil, and denounce Christ, and then you say it is unfortunate? That's not unfortunate, especially since Paul says that division is necessary? Those "self-professing" Christians who turn to evil and denounce Christ were never saved or they wouldn't have left (1 John:2:19). You bring up Judas. Was that unfortunate? No, not at all. Jesus chose an evil man to fulfill His plan.

There is not enough space here to answer all you question, but I will answer in a separate post.

Hi Chris, thanks for your response. I think the OSAS view contradicts itself and contradicts scripture.

The statement "Christians cannot blaspheme" contradicts Christians having freewill. Either Christians have freewill or don't. Some people were Christians then denounced it, like Marilyn Manson, Hitler, among many others. So we have the personal evidence on Earth, and scripture evidence including Matthew 10:33 and many others.

> "But the believer has to be on guard against Satan ( 1 Peter 5:8) & to "work out (attention to) his own salvation with fear & trembling" ( Philippians 2:12). A constant warfare, requiring vigilance, but the believer remains secure in God's Perfect Plan for him."

These verses also contradict the OSAS movement. If a Christian is already saved why would they need to be on guard? What is there to 'work out' if salvation is already decided?

There is no eternal life in th written word,eternal life in only by the living word, My words are spirit and life.Peter says being bornagain by an incorruptible seed even by the words of God that LIVIETH and abideth for ever ( the living word ) which is spirit and life.IF WE CD BE BORNAGAIN BY READING THE BIBLE JESUS SHED HIS BLOOD IN VAIN AND THE CROSS WAS JUST FOOLISHNESS. There was no other nation as sola scriptura as Israel but Israel stoned almost every prophet and REJECTED th Christ and Jesus was the LIVING WORD THAT THEY REJECTED.Its not about paper and ink but the blood of Jesus th living word of God the stone the builders rejected.The bible is precious and holy we need the bible written word. but there is no eternal life in the bible per se.The bible is not God but the living WORD IS TRULY GOD.His blood in not in the bible th written word but his blood is truly in the living word thats y he says you are made CLEAN by the WORD i have spoken unto you WHICH IS SPIRIT AND LIFE .

Jesse, I too appreciate your comments here & do always look for them, as from one who correctly divides the Word of God & has an intimate relationship with the Godhead. I know we may never agree on everything - who even does or can? - but what is essential is that His Word & His Love is enriching us daily & we together "press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus". The Lord give you His Grace & Wisdom in your life & your contributions here.

(from previous comment). 5. Christians can never do wrong. Christians can sin, but the Holy Spirit convicts & repentance must follow; the unbeliever or phony Christian has no such check, repentance or restoration. 6. Can a Christian sin as much as they want? Not possible. A Christian cannot pursue a life of sin: his works (manner of life) are proof of the genuineness of his conversion ( Rom 6; Gal 5:19-26). He can sin at times, hence the instructions & pleas by the Lord & the apostles to new & mature believers to abstain from all appearance of evil; how to deal with temptations; how to find victory. But the believer has to be on guard against Satan ( 1 Pet 5:8) & to "work out (attention to) his own salvation with fear & trembling" ( Phil 2:12). A constant warfare, requiring vigilance, but the believer remains secure in God's Perfect Plan for him.

Adam, I'll only address the 'apparent' errors I make in my comments.

1. Freewill. Yes, all Christians & unsaved have a freewill (to sin). 2. Blasphemy. Not possible for Christians. Blasphemy is the accusation one makes against the Holy Spirit that Jesus' Works are generated from Satan ( Mt 12:24-32). 3. God's non-forgiveness to blasphemers. As above: Christians cannot blaspheme. 4. "Not well thought through". The purpose of my phrase was that God's Plan of Salvation WAS well thought through, but IF His Plan allowed for a (truly) saved person to be lost, then the Work of the Cross has failed in that person's salvation. God's Plan is Perfect, "all that the Father giveth Me shall come to Me...I will in no wise cast out" ( Jn 6:37); "sealed with the Holy Spirit" ( Eph 1:13, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22). (see next comment).

Chris: My brain was reworked to street preaching. Much easier than warning Christians. I make a list of people skipping their way to being weeded out as a goat. Then I sit on the floor by my bed and pray for them. I ask the Lord to send workers into the harvest to witness the love of God to them before it's too late. I thank Him for rescuing me and pulling me back with that shepherds pole. Our sinful slip ups help us reach out as a disciple of Jesus. Jesus was humble of heart, on task, merciful and knows what we need. He has never hit me in the face with the Bible. I only see lost people. If our prayer life is rich, the Holy Spirit will help us to think less about judging the sin and "come let us reason together; tho your sins be as scarlet, they shall be white as snow; though they be red as crimson, they shall be as wool. Isaiah 1:18, 43:26, 29:18.

There's a scripture about a full stall (kinda funny) but I view it as a productive prayer life. Jesus is interceding and so should we.

Hi Jesse, is your position that Christians never commit blasphemy of the holy spirit? or that they are incapable to? or they don't have the freewill to?

The Bible says even angels in heaven sinned, because they too have freewill in heaven. Humans have the same freewill, and Christians have the same freewill, do they not? Unfortunately some Christians have turned to evil and denounced faith in Jesus and committed blasphemy of the holy spirit, do you recognize this? Judas did that.

What is your reason for living life as a Christian or trying to be obedient to Jesus, if it has nothing to do with going to heaven?

Hebrews 10:26 You said doesn't refer to salvation, except it does. Have you read the whole chapter? How do you feel about James 2:17-26 or John 14:15, or Luke 12:9?

Many verses say Christians are to be obedient, but are you saying obedience or transforming isn't needed to enter heaven? Do you think there's no downside to Christians following the world of sin? Romans 12:2

>If it weren't, then the work at the Cross was defective & God's Eternal & Perfect Plan was not well thought through.

Not well thought through? Just because a Christian still has freewill to sin, and just because some Christians do in fact commit blasphemy and just because God doesn't forgive you for it doesn't mean God's plan isn't well thought through or imperfect. Where does your criteria of what is 'not well thought through' come from?

The Bible is full of verses warning people to avoid sin. All the parables are warnings. Most people will go to hell whether people like it or not, whether PC or not. Sharing the gospel is to seek and save the lost. If Christians can never do any wrong, why did Jesus keep warning them to obey. What is the point of even trying if everyone is saved? So, a Christian can sin as much as they want- is that your belief? Is that what Jesus says in the Bible or did he actually say the opposite?

Correction: I meant to say God, not God's. Originally, I had those who are trusting in "God's promise." While trying to trim things to fit, I removed the word promise, but missed changing God's to just God.

Adam, let's look at Mark 3:28-30, the unpardonable sin. V.29, Jesus says, But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: He's not talking about Christians. Verse 30 says, Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit. Who are "they?" Not Christians. If you back up to Verse 22, you see who Jesus is giving the warning to. Blaspheming means to express rejection. When the Holy Spirit convicts a person of their sin, and their need of Christ, if they reject the testimony, their sins will not be forgiven. Christians receive the testimony, they don't reject it. Why use Hebrews 10:26? It has nothing to do with losing salvation. You're free to believe that you yourself can lose your own salvation, but you shouldn't be trying to convince those who are trusting in God's that they can lose theirs. Instead of looking for verses that seem to indicate you can lose your salvation, I would try finding the verses that indicate you can't!

Chris,

Thank you so much for your encouraging words. I have been blessed by several answers you have posted. Very well said about His salvation being complete. Salvation is all of God. The only thing we contribute to our salvation is the sin to which we need to be saved from. He is the author and finisher of our faith. He designs it, and He brings it to its completion. My perspective on judging is that we are not to judge our brothers and sisters in Christ, but we are to be "Fruit Inspectors! Ye shall know them by their fruits. So even though I am not to judge you, per se, I'm still to inspect the fruit. And from what I see, you're relationship with Christ seems to be "Rock Solid." God Bless!