John Chapter 5 Discussion Page 7

Adam, I too believe that it is "once saved, always saved". If it weren't, then the work at the Cross was defective & God's Eternal & Perfect Plan was not well thought through. The problems that are evident: do we recognize that God is truly the Judge of men's souls & has the Christian truly been saved by faith through the hearing of the Gospel? In relation to the first question: even before a supposed believer re-enters into a life of sin & rejection of the Godhead, God already knows the state of that soul. It is us who fall into error by giving a 'qualified' judgement of who is saved & who is not. Yes, we do accept one another as part of Gods Family, & so we should, as we are to also preach this challenge: "So you think you are a Christian - Why?". Secondly, how many out there believe they are Christians because of partaking in the ordinances, maybe a strong feeling, Church membership, in Christian service? The truly born again simply cannot be lost.

Hello, the Bible refutes that with these 2 verses and more. A Christian who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit clearly isn't forgiven and won't go to heaven, because that's what Jesus said. He warned Christians about this in the Bible: Mark 3:28-30. Hebrews 10:26. How can anyone claim that a Christian who deliberately turns their back on God and permanently denounces Jesus is still saved? It seems that Jesus's own words would have to be ignored to come to such a conclusion. John 14:15. Why would Jesus tell his Christian followers to obey Him if they were already saved and if it made no difference if they obeyed or not? Why does this Matthew 7:21 reference say also to obey if you don't have to? Clearly these verses paint a different picture than the one satan is painting trying to convince Christians that its ok to disobey and sin all you want with no consequence. One of these beliefs is true and the other is false. Satan is the father of lies and may be behind one of them- which is more likely, that satan is deceiving Christians into being unnecessarily obedient, or that he's deceiving Christians into believing it's ok to be disobedient?

No. We can't lose our Salvation. If we could lose our Salvation because of some sin we commit then every body has already lost their Salvation because everybody sins. And nobody who is truly saved will ever use the fact that we can't lose our Salvation as an excuse to sin. As the Apostle Paul says: "Shall we sin so that Grace may abound? God forbid." What he was saying was, shall we go hog wild killing, stealing and committing every sin in the book just because we're saved by Grace and can't lose our salvation? Of course not. And there has never been a single truly saved person in the entire history of Christianity who has ever had that attitude, contrary to the accusations of those who don't believe once saved always saved. What some people seem to have a hard time understanding is that all sin, no matter how big or small causes us to be separated from God and undeserving of Salvation. That's why the only way to be saved is by having your sins forgiven and to remain forgiven forever.

Michael...if you have a Word from the Lord on these pressing questions, then say on. I would be intrigued by your answers & hopefully references to them. Thank you - I wait expectantly.

Well I know the answers to those questions ... I wanted to see if you knew the answer ...

I believe those questions can only be answered by Almighty God alone. Though my guess is, that when you do get to Heaven's gates, you'll have other things on your mind than dates & ribs.

1/ What was the REAL date when Yashua (JESUS) was born?

2/ Which rib did God take from Adam to make Eve?

Jesse, just wanted to thank you for your great posts (the last two specifically): I concur fully with your stand, in that God makes no mistakes - if He saves us, then His Salvation is complete & perfect. Nothing more can be added to guarantee or perfect it & if a believer errs in sin, the Spirit is quick to alert us & longs for our repentance & restoration. I think where we fail as Christians, is that we take it on ourselves to make a final judgement on who is a Christian. Often lovely spiritual words, buoyant ministry, & even demonstration of the Christ's graces leads us to accept that person as a brother or sister. When in reality, we are not called to judge others (in any form), but rather to judge ourselves as Paul did daily ( 1 Cor 9:24-27). Not that we should not consider each other as family, but ever remembering that it is only the Lord Who knows our hearts & we have not been put in a place of judgement of hearts by Him.

Angela: Rededicate your life to Jesus. Sometimes we need to pray with someone.

After I was born again, a church member prayed with me. She said, you are forgiven,

About 30 times. I got up a new person.

It just about made me fall down: John 12:38-32. "Then came there a voice from heaven, I have glorified it, and will glorify it again.

The people therefore that stood by, and HEARD it, said that it thundered: and others said, an angel spake to Him. Jesus answered and said, This Voice came not because of me, but for your sakes. Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince (Satan) of this world be CAST OUT. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

Some of you should know that in original language, there is man (male); and there is woman (man with a womb).

No confusion there. If you have a womb then you're female. If you have it cut out, you're still female. If you have male parts and it's removed, you're still male.

We all know who is the author of confusion is....satan. He thinks he has you but not so. You can still give your heart and SOUL to Jesus and be born again.

Time now to get into THE ARK, which is Jesus Christ, the Savior

Part two comment:

Was it all a creation experiment that got scrapped and restarted? We know something huge hit the earth and killed all the dinosaurs, everything. All we have left is bone, rock, vegetation evidence and oil. What are people fighting about on earth? Oil, water, elements. What Lucifer/Satan meant for confusion and evil was destroyed by God. God created the solar system: and how is it that only earth supports life? The earth is the Lords and everything in it. Satan no longer has the title deed to this Earth. He lost it at THE CROSS. He does cause the humans much grief though. He does the bad things. He is facing Hell and he knows his time is short! Revelation on earth is going to be beyond brutal. Give your heart, mind and soul to Jesus now!! Quit playing scientist. I'm sure Satan loves it. He's got you... until you decide to Awake Sleeper. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. People didn't believe because of the Pharisees.

Got up today in prayer about this whole debate about creation vs evolution. All day felt the nearness of the Holy Spirit. This evening He gave some Light on this. It's up to you to listen.

The Holy Spirit said: If I be lifted up..

The scripture is John 12:32. (Read John 12:23-50 for continuity)

In Genesis, GOD CREATED: 2 humans and all kinds of animal creatures. He blessed them and called it VERY good. No mutations. Any of you that believe in your hearts & brains, that God created mistakes and mutations, is not saved. That is an ACCUSATION and you must know who the accuser is (satan). Your mind is blinded. John 12:40.

All this business of missing links, mutations, DNA similarities is unholy. Satan was thrown to earth by Michael the archangel. That event is recorded in one of the prophetic Books. We don't know how long he was loose on the earth creating his own evil ie: dinosaurs, pre-adamic peoples. We have bones. Did God say EVER that He did that?

Part one comment

You make a great point Bob. There are people who think since I am saved and I cannot lose my salvation, I can sin all I want because I'm covered. It's sad that people think that way, but they do. It should never be like that, ever. I don't understand how anyone who professes to be a believer, professes to follow Christ, and professes to love God would want to go out and sin anyways. Those who believe that way make me wonder if they're even saved at all.

Rev. 3:5 is a verse that has been such a blessing to me. When I read the phrase "He that overcomes" from the original language, I see it is a Present Participle, meaning the one (who is) overcoming. So, if I have Christ living inside of me, I am overcoming, and I will overcome, because He overcame, and He promises not to blot me out of the book of the Lamb, His book. I believe there are two books, the book of life which has listed in it everybody that has received human life. And then the book of the Lamb, those who belong to Christ.

The rapture is taught in the Bible in 1 Thessalonians Chapter 4. It's just a matter of semantics on the word Rapture. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 says concerning the rapture: Then we who are living and remaining shall be caught up together with them in the clouds for a meeting of the Lord in the air.

The phrase "shall be caught up" is translated from the Greek word HARPADZO, which means to be caught up, to be snatched, to be seized. The Latin translation of the same Greek word is RAPTUS, which is where we get the word rapture from. So whether people call it the rapture, or the HARPADZO, or say shall be caught up, it is all talking about the same thing.

It is a time when Christ comes and removes His church from this earth before His judgement comes upon it.

(Last Part)

But probably one of the most powerful Scriptures of God's keeping power is Romans 8:38-39: "For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor powers, nor any thing which has come, nor things coming, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

The only way a person can be saved is by a spiritual birth from God; and the only way a person can keep his salvation is through the keeping power of God.

That is my position. I don't believe I can lose it because I am trusting in the power of the one who has saved me, sealed me, and has promised not to lose me. I'm sitting there at the "will call" waiting for the one who purchased me to come pick up His possession.

(Part 4) John 17:11-12 also shows the keeping power of God. I believe in the permanency of salvation because the bible teaches that God is the one who saves and He does so from out of His mercy. According to Paul, in Ephesians 2:8, grace, faith, and salvation are gifted from God.

John says, in John 1:13, believers "were born, not from blood, nor from the will of the flesh, nor from the will of man, but from God." Therefore, from Scripture, a human being cannot save him/herself.I can't keep myself saved, so I have to trust God's power to keep me. John 10:27-29 is one of the most beautiful pieces of scripture that shows me that I am secure in Christ.

Also, Jude states in his doxology in Verse 24, "But to the one being able to keep you without stumbling and to set you before His glory blameless in exultation." Paul emphasized the keeping power of God's Spirit Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 4:30.

Sorry this is long, but salvation is very important to me. One more post, I promise!

(Part 3)

Not only is God is the sole source of salvation, but every saved person is kept by the power of God. Peter writes, in 1 Peter 1:5, that believers are, "The ones who are being kept in the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

Paul writes on the same subject, in Galatians 5:17, "For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are opposing to one another; in order that you should not do what you want." These scriptures show that believers cannot be taken away from Christ by the flesh, because the Spirit of God is dwelling within to prevent that from happening.

Jesus Himself said, in John 6:37, "All that the Father gives to me will come to me; and the one coming to me I will never cast out." He goes on to say in John 6:39, "And this is the will of the Father who has sent me, in order that of all which he has given to me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up in the last day."

(Part 2)

Once I was drawn to Christ by the Father and surrendered my life to Him, His Spirit came into my spirit and sealed me unto the day of redemption.

I belong to Christ. He purchased me, meaning he owns me. Paul said in Romans 8:9, "Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, this one is not of Him." In Romans 8:14, he wrote, "For as many as are being led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God."

In 2 Corinthians 13:5, Paul challenged the church at Corinth: "Examine yourselves, if you are in the faith; prove your own selves, or do you not know your own selves, that Jesus Christ is in you, except you are reprobates?" John, supported the same understanding in 1 John 3:24, and 1 John 4:13. Salvation happens only when God's Spirit enters and remains in a person's spirit, thereby causing spiritual birth. Nothing in the Bible teaches that salvation is accomplished by the repetition of the Sinner's Prayer or through the performance of any other kind of human formula.

Angela, people's salvation is the most important to me. Please let me share with you where I stand on salvation. I will have to break this up in order to explain my position. I am one of those that strongly believe that salvation cannot be lost. Emphasis on the ability to save has been shifted in recent years from God to man. As a result, the permanency of salvation has been called into question quite frequently. Many believe you can lose it, and many believe you can't.

For me, I have to ask myself who am I trusting? Am I trusting in myself to keep myself saved, or am I trusting God's promise to keep me saved? My salvation is based solely on God's Spirit coming into my spirit, causing me to become a new creation, a new person. My experience of regeneration by the Holy Spirit is an act of God, not of myself. I would have never came to Christ if God the Father did not first draw me to Him. The salvation process begins with God the Father ( John 6:44).

Some argue once saved always saved and eternal security of the believer. Some use this grace as an excuse to sin.

I just know that the Bible says this:

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not BLOT blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

One can argue over the interpretation of who gets blotted out of the book of life. It is a scary thought to consider some names in the book of life could be blotted out. Who will these be? pray over it and ask.

I am not sure either.

Churches use the Latin word Rapture, (that word is not in the Bible) when they are talking about the resurrection.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

What is the rapture

Question

Could a believer lose their salvation?

Being judged and sent to hell has nothing to do with you being a good person. It has everything to do with who you say Jesus is. Only He can provide us with redemption thru His Blood alone. We must believe in the True Gospel - His Death, His Burial, and His Resurrection. For God gave us the good report of His Son Jesus in John 3:16. If we believe this then we have life if not then death abides in us. The SIN of unbelief in Jesus is the only SIN that will prevent us from going to Heaven. For salvation is a free gift from GOD to those that believe that JESUS is THE CHRIST.

Hi, Sheldon okay so I am a young teen Christian and I believe that as long as you are saved and you love God and Jesus I think that you should be okay. But I am not God and I can not tell you 100% what will happen. But just pray to God every night before you go to sleep and ask God to forgive your sins. I do, and I always feel better. Just trust in God Sheldon that is the only advice I can truly give you because I dont know the Bible as most people do.

Our wishes to you Karrie & your husband on the occasion of your 26th Anniversary. I know it should be a joyous time for you both, but instead you write tearfully for your unsaved husband. Your post has just reminded me about my own marriage (24 yrs ago) & the text we had placed on our wedding invitation. That was from Col 3:14 "and above all these things, put on charity (love), which is the bond of perfectness". Paul tells us that above all that he has written in vv 12,13, we need Agape Love (Perfect, Holy, unselfishness, faithful), & this Love is the binder of all of the Christian graces. So you could ask this of God in your prayer & if your husband is willing to listen, then read Col 3:12-16 together: to see God's desire for these Holy qualities to be in you both & to seek His Face for help with any shortcomings, so that your marriage can return to that on your wedding day. Let your husband also share & discuss his views on the reading & earnestly ask the Lord for help.

SHELDON: 1. Adam & Eve wanted time be like God. Satan tempts people with food all the time mostly cause it's unhealthy. I like fasting. I tell my appetite NO and mean it. You can drink broth, water but no solid food.

Turn off the tv, the radio; no media. Fast from things you love and FEAST on the Word of God. Do not blab to anyone that you are fasting. Pray and dedicate this time to sit and listen to what the Holy Spirit May teach you in the scriptures. Read whole chapters or books at a time. No skipping around.

Start reading the whole Book Of Romans.

Everything God does is NATURAL.

Everything Satan does is UNNATURAL.

That's how you can tell if you are sinning. In your heart you already know the answers.

TO REPENT means to turn around and go the other way.(walk away from the sin). A term 'Backsliding' means to stand still. Your not going anywhere. Once you taste the goodness of Jesus you will never go back to the dark. Taste and see...

Sheldon, 1 Corinthians 6:9,10, reminds that all sinners will not inherit (enter) God's Kingdom. And this includes drunkards, covetous, effeminate, abusers of themselves with mankind, etc. But the Scripture also says in verse 11: "And (of) such were some of you, (but) now ye are justified in the Name of the Lord Jesus", i.e. through Jesus' Sacrifice & faith in Him, all sinners can be cleansed & forgiven & receive eternal life. So why does the Bible speak of homosexuality as sin? Homosexuality was never in God's Design for humans; we were given separate genders, to enter into a heterosexual marriage & bear children ( Gen 1:27,28). Not regarding those who are homosexual because of choice or result of abuse, but those who believe they are born in this way, I would say, that this tendency is not from God, but may even be an aberration in the mind's development. If so, then sin comes about when that desire turns to lust or action ( James 1:14,15). And God's forgiveness avails for those also.

So, um I'm gay and I believe I'm still a good person, will I still be sent to hell in the end?

I'm having trouble on deciding of a prayer for my troubled heart for my unsaved troubled husband, as today is our 26th anniversary