John
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John Chapter 6 Discussion Page 3
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In fact, Ezekiel 18:4 - Behold, ALL SOULS ARE MINE; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
The Bible even says that in the womb, their days are recorded in a Book.
All of the aborted children (preborn), miscarried and stillborn, death by accidents or murder: their souls go to heaven immediately.
If we can see Jesus's response to the Pharisees comments and the disciples trying to pull the kids off of Jesus .... we will know that Jesus loves children: everything about them. I just believe every child taken by trauma are with Jesus in heaven now. They're alive somewhere. It's too heartbreaking to think of their lives being erased out of that Book. It's contrary to what we know about the character of Jesus.
Mark 10:13-16
And they were bringing children to him that he might touch them, and the disciples rebuked them. But when Jesus saw it, he was indignant and said to them, "Let the children come to me; do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God. Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it." And he took them in his arms and blessed them, laying his hands on them.
There was a study on numbers 10-20 years after abortion was legalized, in the papers. The price of college went up 29% every year, due to reduction of college entrants. It's still going up every year. Ask anyone paying off student loans.
Not only that, but there is less people to pay taxes to support unemployed, under-employed, Medicare, social security, just to name a few.
It's like another sign of the times we are living in.
Talk to you tomorrow, Brother.
M. :)
Carleton
I have another question for you as a Catholic believer, why do some older Catholic Churches present Jesus in a casket up by the altar? I have personally witnessed this in two historic Catholic Churches.
Carleton
I hate to break the news to you, but Baptism is essential to entering into the new covenant of Jesus just as circumcision was essential to entering the old testament covenant. I hope you are Baptized. Wouldn't want you to miss out. And once you are Baptized, your free will allows you to lose your innocence by sinning. Here is where your repentance comes in. If you don't repent, then one gets to go to the smoking section!
Jesus was very specific - Unless you are born of the water and the spirit (Baptism for short) you cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven. Not sure how that could be any clearer.
blessings,
Mike
The little children you referred to are the 'believers' that start their journey of repentance as babies ( Matthew 11:25; Luke 10:21; Romans 2:20; 1 Cor. 3:1; 1 Peter 2:2).
The word of God is spiritually discerned and not understood by the natural man ( 1 Cor. 2:14).
On the contrary: He that is spiritual judgeth all things ( 1 Cor. 2:15).
The word 'Repent' in different forms (repent, repentance, repented, repentest, repenteth, repenting, repentings) is mentioned 110 times in the KJV, and means a lot more than what people by nature have been conditioned to believe. The word 'repent' used in the New Testament was translated from the Greek word "metanoeo", and means to change, transform, to think differently or reconsider.
It is the key principle of all the teachings of Jesus Christ and the axiom (basis) of the Word of God and a prerequisite and primary requirement for the salvation of mankind. It actually means the changing of spirits - to turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan unto God ( Acts 26:18).
For a better understanding and the 'spiritual truth' of what it means to repent, and learn how and by whom mankind has been deceived ( Rev. 12:9) and what people must do to be reunited with the true and living God, we invite you to seek Him according to the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive ( Matthew 7:7; John 14:17).
You need not that any man teach you ( Isaiah 54:13; 6:45; 1 John 2:27), as mankind follows after an image of a false god and a false Christ ( Matthew 24:24; Mark 13:22; Gal. 4:8; 2 Cor. 11:13-15; Rev. 12:9).
It is only by revelation of God that people will come to know the true Christ ( Daniel 12:4,9; Amos 3:7; Matthew 16:17; Luke 2:26; Romans 16:25; 1 Cor. 2:10; Gal. 1:16; Eph. 3:3,5; Rev. 1:1), and only then will you be able to overcome the spirit of this world ( 1 John 5:4; Rev. 3:21) and learn what 'True Repentance' means, and how this whole world has been deceived ( Rev. 12:9). It should also be remembered that it is a narrow way that leadeth unto 'Life', and few there be that find it ( Matthew 7:14).
LUKE 15:10. LIKEWISE, I SAY UNTO YOU, THERE IS JOY IN THE PRESENCE OF THE ANGELS OF GOD OVER ONE SINNER THAT REPENTETH.
I'm not quite sure how the topic switched to infant baptism but now that you bring it up, I understand that there are a number of Protestant denominations that do not believe in infant Baptism. Is that expressly forbidden in the Bible? The Church from the beginning has always had infant Baptism. We don't wait to feed a baby until it decides on its own that it needs food. Baptism confers spiritual food, grace and without that, it can't go to Heaven (oh boy, am I going to hear about that one). We are born in sin and a sinful person cannot go to Heaven unless that sin has been removed. Jesus did die for our redemption but that does not void the need for baptism. He told Nicky that "unless a man be born again of water and the spirit He cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven". Jesus didn't specify that he couldn't be a baby either. There are also references in the Bible where Peter went to the Gentile's house under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and baptized the whole household. Can't believe that there weren't some babies in that mix. Just because we are born doesn't mean that we go to Heaven automatically. So, if we love our babies, then let's get them into Jesus family ASAP and then raise them in the Faith. The Jewish tradition set a good example when on the 8th day after birth the male child was circumcised as a "baptism" into the covenant with God. They didn't have any choice in the matter. This is why abortion is so horrific to God. As far as we know, that child will not get the opportunity to join the family of God. Only God's mercy will determine that condition - maybe Limbo - the place where the just went before the Redemption. Lots of questions to be answered when we get to Heaven. But until then, we need to do what is prudent. "Unless you be like little children..."
All things are possible with God, Palm. After all, we were all one before Martin Luther. Let us pray that Jesus wish to the Father ( John 17:21 kjv)
"That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."
We should not underestimate the power of God, Palm. There is nothing that God cannot do. We need to stop our inter-famiily squabbles and come together as Christ wants. After all, we all have the same Master.
AMDG,
Mike
Seek, and ye shall find ( Matthew 7:7).
I'll try to be respectful, but I'm 70 and don't have many seconds or filters left... but I'll try.
You will make a good Catholic. My guess is that if you were born in the first 1400 years of the Church you would have been one.
I don't think my first questions were loaded at all. I was just trying to show that we solicit intercessory prayer from others (Adam, would you please pray for my mom who is on her deathbed? for example) so there are times that we use alternatives to solicit God's help other than only going right to Him. Intercessory prayer is all over in the bible. Anytime someone comes up to Jesus to have him help someone else, that is intercessory prayer and Jesus honored that.
Apostolic succession (Priesthood in the order of Melchizedek) is the line of bishops stretching back to the apostles. All over the world, all Catholic bishops are part of a lineage that goes back to the time of the apostles, something that is impossible in Protestant denominations.
The role of apostolic succession in preserving true doctrine is illustrated in the Bible. To make sure that the apostles' teachings would be passed down after the deaths of the apostles (before the, Paul told Timothy, "What you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" ( 2 Tim. 2:2).
Lots of untruths about the Church. We DO NOT PRAY TO statues or People. Statues are a physical representation of a spiritual person and we honor (not worship) the person and ask for their help as an intercessor. There are statues in the public sector but we do not worship them either. Humans are visual creatures - statues, icons, pictures give us a representation of who we are asking for intercession. Pictures in wallets perform the same function.
Blessings to you Adam
fellowships where did he get this ?
I apologize for making the devil comment seemingly directed at you. Please forgive me.
What I meant to say was that the devil is behind the Protestant division. He hates the Eucharist as it is such a personal love gift from Jesus to His people.
So the perfect storm happened with Father Martin Luther in 1400s to break off a branch of revolutionaries from "under the thumb" of the Catholic Church into a new dissident group called Protestants which allowed them to do away with many of the fundamental teachings and authority of the Church. You can be assured that the devil was behind this fiasco as he hates the Catholic Church as well.
So Protestantism was able in one fell swoop to get rid of Jesus' priesthood, His established government, His Mass, His Eucharist, and the rest of His grace giving sacraments (save Baptism thanks be to God) etc. This is how the devil has tricked multiple generations of people and deprived them of the full benefits of the Church that Jesus established. This is also why there are more than 30,000 different Christian denominations because there is no authority to govern the splinters and the interpretation of the bible. The Bible needs the Church for true interpretation not visa versa. Without that, 2 people can interpret the same passage different ways and they both can't be right (this thread is an example) and therefore, that is why there are so many different denominations.
So, I rest my case that the fullness of Jesus plan is for us to "all be one" in the Catholic Church that He established, guides and nourishes at every moment. IMHO, there will be a reunification of the Protestants with the Catholic Church and this may happen by the end of the year. If you think that much of a change is impossible, just look what has happen to our world in less than a year. The devil is in his last temper tantrum - fear, division and ultimately the antichrist's appearance. We live in exciting times. Hold on to your booties!
In your first paragraph you asked a couple questions that seem to be loaded with assumptions. I have no idea where those assumptions even come from.
At the end of your first paragraph you mention Peter as head of his church? I don't interpret the verse that way at all. Jesus is the head of the church, not a man or anyone else. You can view a commentary on this on this website which explains it in detail: Link
In your second paragraph you make a case for 'priestly succession', but I believe this conclusion is based on misinterpretions of the scripture. Jesus already said he's the way, no one else. He's the door, no one else. No hierarchy or priesthood is supported by the scriptures as an arbitrator between you and God. The Bible says church can have its own minister, elders and deacons, but that's only for church management, not for a relationship between you and God. Jesus is the way, he's the only way. There's no where in scripture saying people need to pray to a pope and have graven images of them. It says the opposite, though.
Have you not asked other people to pray for you or for some special intention that you have? I'm guessing you have. Why do you do that? Are you not putting a man/woman in-between you and Jesus? Jesus established a new priesthood in the apostles and put Peter as head of His Church on earth ( Mat 16:18+).
The Acts of the Apostles shows in numerous places about priestly succession as well as succession of Peter after he died. Jesus knew his apostles were going to die and designed His Church to continue till the end of time with a priesthood to administer His Sacraments which meant someone else would need to replace Peter as head of the Church and receive the power of the "keys". If you don't like the way Jesus set up His Church government, talk to Him. Technically, the Pope has only invoked the power of Infallibility less than a handful of times and usually not without consulting his advisors. The Lord's Peace brother.
I do believe Jesus spoke in parables and I'm sure you will agree that he spoke literally as well. New Testament refers to Jesus as the paschal/passover lamb ( 1 Corinthians 5:7). Vegan Jews didn't skip eating the lamb at the Passover - eating the flesh was a requirement to fulfill God's ultimatum. When Jesus said we are to eat and drink his flesh and blood he meant it.
You cherry picked the John 6 passage. Continue on:
55For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
60Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?"
61When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you?
66From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?"
If Jesus was speaking symbolically, He would have called those who were leaving and said "Wait a minute, here's what I really meant." No He didn't and to make the point He was willing to have his apostles go away if they didn't believe what he said. The Eucharist is the ultimate "call to Faith" that Jesus gave the members of His Church and the ultimate gift. The saying of a couple in love saying "I could just eat you" - well in this case, Jesus meant it. He is the manna for the Journey, the living bread, the Eucharist. The Eucharist is the crown jewel that the Protestants threw out when rebelling. And as for the Pope, read up on when Jesus gave Peter the "keys" and what that means. That should resolve your Pope issues and succession. Joseph in the old testament had the "keys" to Egypt. Also remember, the Church came 400 years before the Bible. The bible has truth, but not the whole truth. That is found in the Tradition of the Catholic Church. "Eat my flesh and drink my blood" - NOT SYMBOLIC. The devil has tricked you. God's blessings brother.
First of all, my sister, I pray that you will return to the one True Faith, the Catholic Church, the one Jesus founded. I think you will be given that opportunity very soon. As for your specific comment about "Father", your interpretation was taken literally and out of context. Context is CRITICAL when interpreting the Bible.
Perhaps the most pointed New Testament reference to the theology of the spiritual fatherhood of priests is Paul's statement, "I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel" ( 1 Cor. 4:14-15).
Peter followed the same custom, referring to Mark as his son: "She who is at Babylon, who is likewise chosen, sends you greetings; and so does my son Mark" ( 1 Pet. 5:13). The apostles sometimes referred to entire churches under their care as their children. Paul writes, "Here for the third time I am ready to come to you. And I will not be a burden, for I seek not what is yours but you; for children ought not to lay up for their parents, but parents for their children" ( 2 Cor. 12:14); and, "My little children, with whom I am again in travail until Christ be formed in you!" ( Gal. 4:19).
John said, "My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous" ( 1 John 2:1); "No greater joy can I have than this, to hear that my children follow the truth" ( 3 John 4). In fact, John also addresses men in his congregations as "fathers" ( 1 John 2:13-14).
By referring to these people as their spiritual sons and spiritual children, Peter, Paul, and John imply their own roles as spiritual fathers. Since the Bible frequently speaks of this spiritual fatherhood, we Catholics acknowledge it and follow the custom of the apostles by calling priests "father."
Come home dear sister!
I'd like to share an alternate viewpoint if you are open to it.
Do you believe that Jesus often spoke parables? These stories and metaphors were a means for teaching and he explained why he used them: Luke 8:10
So, when Jesus said to eat his flesh and blood in John 6:53 did he literally mean to kill him and resort to cannibalism? I believe not, based on all his previous metaphors. Even his followers knew it was symbolic, but didn't quite understand the symbolism yet.
Jesus also said a few verses earlier in John 6:35 that he's the bread of life. Does that mean he's literally a loaf of bread walking and talking? It was a metaphor.
Jesus also explained the purpose of communion in Luke 22:19. Do it in remembrance of Him. If the goal was to literally eat and drink Jesus then you would think he would not have said this. It suggests the whole purpose of communion is to remember Jesus and His sacrifice for our sins and not that we're supposed to literally eat and drink him as food.
Also Jesus says John 14:6, John 10:9, Acts 4:12 that he's the only way for salvation. Not a man. So, I feel if a religion uses another man, like a Pope, in-between you and Jesus that you must go through then it is a false teaching inconsistent with scripture.
God bless!
Here's just the first one.....
Matthew 23:9
"And call nomanyour father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven."
King James Version (KJV)
Soon, very soon, Jesus is going to have a "one on one" with everyone in the world about the state of their soul as He sees it (See the book "The Warning" by former atheist Christine Watkins). He will also make everyone aware that He is God and that the Catholic Church is the church that He founded and wants people to belong to because it is the surest route to Heaven via His grace giving sacraments.
So, yes, if you are not Catholic, you are not "technically" fulfilling this command of Jesus. So, come aboard. We have plenty of room for sinners wanting to become saints.
I'd like to hear your thoughts on why you think only a Catholic can follow Jesus's instruction?