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I think setting and authority is what's in view, Deborah was a prophetess that judged Israel, Judges 4:4.
I do understand this was not the church age, but it was certainly after Adam and Eve sin.
And yes Eve was deceived but Adam sinned also, Romans 5:12 (KJV) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
1 Timothy 2:12 (KJV) But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
The verse you presented here I think is a church setting, Paul is instructing Timothy to set up a Church.
but what about outside of that setting?
Teachers and Preachers is also sheep following chief shepherd.
We're tought humility as Peter was taught when the Lord washed his feet.
And look at Paul here
1 Corinthians 3:5-7 (KJV) Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
Another verse you given:
Titus 2:3-5 (KJV) The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, TEACHERS of good things;
That they may TEACH the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
It's not at all in view of a lesser role in the body of Christ, It's a designed structure.
I think it's an extension of the model shown in Ephesians 5:22-32. a husband and wife modeling Christ and the Church.
Most of the Bible is written to address men and not women, the weaker vessel as described. Eve sinned in the garden, not Adam. I guess my question is as a young new believer, how can both be done and still honor God. I have seen this modeled in the church both ways and it seems to be written clearly, until you read about Deborah. Esther seems clear because the setting is in a kingdom during that period.
When Women are anointed to Lead - In Reply on Judges 5 - 3 years ago
If you will type Judges chapter 5 TEACHING: the most used Commentators speak on this matter of Deborah arising to this occasion to rule as a Judge; or lead.
Type it in the Google Box.
It has happened that men get caught up in commerce and other lukewarm activities: and God will use a woman.
An identical need arose in the Book of Esther. By her dedication and actions, the death of the Jews was avoided.
There are definite warnings to be heeded here. When men are seeking direction from the feet of God: women have little need to do else but follow.
It's when we get taken captive by national sports teams, political wars, nations that refuse to practice fair trades and etc....
God may raise up women to get the nation headed in the direction God demands we go.
2 Chronicles 7:14
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
Isaiah 57:15
For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
James 4:10
Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
Matthew 23:12
And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
1 Peter 5:6
Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time.
Hello Jesse, I visited a Jewish Temple in Nashville,TN with my best friend around 1976. The men sat on the right side and the women were on the left. I thought it so strange. Years later I walked into a Mennonite/Anabaptist Church in California and saw the same separation. When ever visitors come they are welcome to sit together with their families. Covid set back the old ways for a half year, but we have bounced back to the tried and true. Yes, Paul was a good teacher, trying to move the Jewish believers ahead and deeper into Christ and the gentiles too. Thanks for bringing up the subject, it warmed my heart.
It sounds like your place of fellowship separates the men from the women? That is very interesting because I have not heard of that in the modern church. Definitely, nothing wrong with that, as the early church did so. But you can surely understand what was going on back in the early church, and Paul's need to give them correction.
God is a God of order. Like music that must harmonize and flow and have pattern. Music that has no order is just noise.
The order of man is that he is the glory of a woman and God is the glory of man. If we follow Gods order we harmonize with the will of God. God will work through us when we walk in harmony with Him. Rom 8:28
One other (possible) interesting tidbit. Our Canadian churches mostly seat the men on the left side while almost all of our US churches seat the men on the right. Most all of our congregations have baby rooms on both sides of the aisle.
There are two pieces of scripture that cover this. First of all, in 1 Corinthians 14:34, it says let your women keep silence in the churches: The word woman in scripture is also the word for wife, which meets the criteria for here.
Let your women, or wives, keep silence in the churches:
What does this mean? Well, in the early church, they had the men on one side and the women on the other. Men could not be with women, and women could not be with men. So somebody is up there teaching, and somebody's wife is over on the other side of the room going "Hey Fred, do you agree with that? What do you think?" And they are talking across the room.
She's not permitted to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. That's back in Genesis 3:16 under the woman. Remember after they sinned, God said I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception. In sorrow you shall bring forth children and your desire shall be to your husband, and he shall rule over thee.
So to solve this problem in the church, Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14:35 "And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." It's not that they can't speak at all. It's just that they were being disruptive.
The second piece of scripture in 1 Timothy 2:12 says, "But I suffer not, that is I do not allow a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man. So we've got two things here: I do not allow a woman to teach. There's one. It doesn't say anything about men. Nor, to usurp authority over the man, which is why they shouldn't teach.
The term usurp authority over the man, to usurp authority is the word authenticate. And it means that the woman is not to take the authenticity of man, what the male was created to do.
Pa Ba, may the Spirit grace you with HIS wisdom and HIS understanding.
Most everyone looks at the words in the scriptures as words that have a natural meaning, and they do; but, the WORDS were to be absolute truth in the SPIRITUAL MEANING. John 6:63
For women to be silent in the church and be taught by their husband has a far greater SPIRITUAL meaning than taught by the wisdom of men.
God is no respector of persons, the scriptures have gender in them to be used as instruction. God IS SPIRIT, spirit has no gender; but, God is always referred to in the male gender. The woman is referred to in the female gender. SPIRITUALLY the woman is the wife of Christ; whether you are a male or female you are the woman, Christ wife. The church is YOU; Christ is your husband (whether you be male of female); therefore we ALL (THE WOMAN) are to be silent in the church (ourselves) and let our husband (CHRIST) teach US.
You will be persecuted in brick and mortar churches that only have worldly wisdom.
How can a woman encourage others to move forward as Deborah when men are to lead? The New Testament encourages women to be led by their husbands and to stay quiet.
Norman, the Scripture means exactly what it says Zebulun and Naphtali were the only tribes of Israel to go up to war against GOD's enemies. The other tribes for one reason or the other didn't show up for the Lord to use them and were cursed in the end for their sin of omittion. What a pity? Glory be to God in the highest through our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ! Amen.
This chapter relates how Deborah, as a prophetess is giving us a messianic prophecy dealing with the coming of the Messiah in power. The entire chapter is dealing with Christ's return to this earth in power.
The kings - you mighty rulers planning to launch attack against the people of Israel of GOD. The LORD GOD OF Israel is mightier than you and will protect them through their praises and petitions to him.
Curse ye Meroz, said the angel of the LORD, curse ye bitterly the inhabitants thereof; because they came not to the help of the LORD, to the help of the LORD against the mighty. Judges 5:23
Here we see a curse upon the inhabitants of Meroz, and for what? They came not to the help of the LORD against the mighty. They came not. They did not get involved. They did not take the side of the LORD to battle against the mighty.
Why do some not want to go to battle for the LORD? Jesus spoke of a certain man who made a great supper, and bade many...but, they all began with with consent to make excuse: one bought a piece of land that he needed to go see, another had bought five yoke of oxen and he was going to prove them, and another had married a wife and therefore could not come. Each one had an interest that they put before the Lord.
Some people will not come out to the Lord's battle against the mighty because they love the praise of men more than the praise of God. They prefer to stand with men and with the acceptable gospel than to risk persecution for the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Still others will watch and say it's not my battle. They do not want to get involved because it will cost them something, something they do not want to give up; a false peace, a false unity, a false reputation.
To come to the help of the Lord, to come to the help of the Lord against the mighty, one must be willing to forsake all. One must be willing to count the cost, deny oneself, and take up one's cross daily and follow the Lord. This needs to be done individually and collectively as the body of Christ.
In Judges 5, the LORD commanded Barak to take ten thousand men of the children of Naphtali and of the the children of Zebulun to go to battle against Sisera, the captain of Jabin's army, the king of Canaan who had a host of men and nine hundred chariots of iron.
The LORD commanded Barak to take of the tribes of Naphtali and of Zebulun to go to battle. Later, we see that some tribes did not take part in this victory. Why?
Barak was sent on foot into the valley; then we see "For the divisions of Reuben there were great thoughts of heart. Why abodest among the sheepfolds, to hear the bleatings of the flocks? For the divisions of Reuben there were great searchings of heart."
Could this be the result of a divided heart? Barak was sent on foot into the valley to meet with the mighty - he was sent on foot into the valley - here one must have faith and obedience. When you are sent on foot into the valley to do battle against the mighty who are mightier than you, a divided heart can stop you from entering that valley on foot. Was Reuben divided? Had they things that divided their hearts? Was their heart with their sheep? Was the heart of Dan with his ships? Was the heart of Asher with his business on the sea shore? Did Gilead stay on the other side Jordan because their hearts were not with the cause of the LORD. Had things and distance divided their hearts against the LORD and when the time came to enter into the valley on foot, their hearts, having divisions, were against the LORD? They either feared, or either felt it was not their battle, or they had other interests that manifested their hearts had divided against the LORD.
Barak was sent on foot into the valley. Jesus was sent on foot into the valley of death. To overcome all the foes of darkness, He had to be in complete obedience and subjection to the Father. Jesus came out victorious over all darkness.
Divisions of heart can make the head and heart have great thought: should I go, what will I lose, is it my battle, do I take part in the victory? Sometimes the heart can rationalize not entering on foot into the valley. A divided heart is unstable in all its ways. Jesus said a man cannot love God and mammom. He will either hold to the one, or he will let go of the other; but, he cannot hold both. The allusion is he thinks he can; but, when it is time to enter on foot into the valley, he will not go.
Nothing can be put above the Lord's will for the one who is sent on foot into the valley - he must be willing to go, even in the face of death with full assurance and complete trust in the Lord who sent him. He must love the Lord his God with all of his heart; a divided heart will fail.
Meroz, and her inhabitants, were cursed because they came not out to the help of the LORD, to the help of the LORD against the mighty.
Zebulon and Naphtali were a people that jeoparded their lives unto the death in the high places of the field.
A divided heart produces failure. We must love the Lord our God with all of our heart. When we are sent on foot into the valley of death, we must go with a single heart, and we will always be victorious.
I believe the literal translation as in most the commentaries and the author's viewpoint. I Also think there is a latter time fulfillment of the stars/planets and their movement judging the wicked on earth to help deliver the saints. God is so sovereign I believe, that he foreordained this cataclysmic, intergalactic event to happen right on time. Those that are in the arc of Christ will not be affected :)
I think setting and authority is what's in view, Deborah was a prophetess that judged Israel, Judges 4:4.
I do understand this was not the church age, but it was certainly after Adam and Eve sin.
And yes Eve was deceived but Adam sinned also, Romans 5:12 (KJV) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
1 Timothy 2:12 (KJV) But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
The verse you presented here I think is a church setting, Paul is instructing Timothy to set up a Church.
but what about outside of that setting?
Teachers and Preachers is also sheep following chief shepherd.
We're tought humility as Peter was taught when the Lord washed his feet.
And look at Paul here
1 Corinthians 3:5-7 (KJV) Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
Another verse you given:
Titus 2:3-5 (KJV) The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, TEACHERS of good things;
That they may TEACH the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
It's not at all in view of a lesser role in the body of Christ, It's a designed structure.
I think it's an extension of the model shown in Ephesians 5:22-32. a husband and wife modeling Christ and the Church.
I hope that helps. God bless
Thank you,
Pa
Proverbs 31
I Timothy 2: 9-15
I Timothy 3: 11-12
I Timothy 5
Titus 2
Type it in the Google Box.
It has happened that men get caught up in commerce and other lukewarm activities: and God will use a woman.
An identical need arose in the Book of Esther. By her dedication and actions, the death of the Jews was avoided.
There are definite warnings to be heeded here. When men are seeking direction from the feet of God: women have little need to do else but follow.
It's when we get taken captive by national sports teams, political wars, nations that refuse to practice fair trades and etc....
God may raise up women to get the nation headed in the direction God demands we go.
2 Chronicles 7:14
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
Isaiah 57:15
For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
James 4:10
Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
Matthew 23:12
And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
1 Peter 5:6
Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time.
Mishael
It sounds like your place of fellowship separates the men from the women? That is very interesting because I have not heard of that in the modern church. Definitely, nothing wrong with that, as the early church did so. But you can surely understand what was going on back in the early church, and Paul's need to give them correction.
The order of man is that he is the glory of a woman and God is the glory of man. If we follow Gods order we harmonize with the will of God. God will work through us when we walk in harmony with Him. Rom 8:28
:)
So do you disagree with Deborah's position?
Please Bring forward your scripture and put it in its proper content for reasoning.
Thank you.
There are two pieces of scripture that cover this. First of all, in 1 Corinthians 14:34, it says let your women keep silence in the churches: The word woman in scripture is also the word for wife, which meets the criteria for here.
Let your women, or wives, keep silence in the churches:
What does this mean? Well, in the early church, they had the men on one side and the women on the other. Men could not be with women, and women could not be with men. So somebody is up there teaching, and somebody's wife is over on the other side of the room going "Hey Fred, do you agree with that? What do you think?" And they are talking across the room.
She's not permitted to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. That's back in Genesis 3:16 under the woman. Remember after they sinned, God said I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception. In sorrow you shall bring forth children and your desire shall be to your husband, and he shall rule over thee.
So to solve this problem in the church, Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14:35 "And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." It's not that they can't speak at all. It's just that they were being disruptive.
The second piece of scripture in 1 Timothy 2:12 says, "But I suffer not, that is I do not allow a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man. So we've got two things here: I do not allow a woman to teach. There's one. It doesn't say anything about men. Nor, to usurp authority over the man, which is why they shouldn't teach.
The term usurp authority over the man, to usurp authority is the word authenticate. And it means that the woman is not to take the authenticity of man, what the male was created to do.
Most everyone looks at the words in the scriptures as words that have a natural meaning, and they do; but, the WORDS were to be absolute truth in the SPIRITUAL MEANING. John 6:63
For women to be silent in the church and be taught by their husband has a far greater SPIRITUAL meaning than taught by the wisdom of men.
God is no respector of persons, the scriptures have gender in them to be used as instruction. God IS SPIRIT, spirit has no gender; but, God is always referred to in the male gender. The woman is referred to in the female gender. SPIRITUALLY the woman is the wife of Christ; whether you are a male or female you are the woman, Christ wife. The church is YOU; Christ is your husband (whether you be male of female); therefore we ALL (THE WOMAN) are to be silent in the church (ourselves) and let our husband (CHRIST) teach US.
You will be persecuted in brick and mortar churches that only have worldly wisdom.
Use the Search Box to locate that. Key in "donkey". It's Old Testament.
Here we see a curse upon the inhabitants of Meroz, and for what? They came not to the help of the LORD against the mighty. They came not. They did not get involved. They did not take the side of the LORD to battle against the mighty.
Why do some not want to go to battle for the LORD? Jesus spoke of a certain man who made a great supper, and bade many...but, they all began with with consent to make excuse: one bought a piece of land that he needed to go see, another had bought five yoke of oxen and he was going to prove them, and another had married a wife and therefore could not come. Each one had an interest that they put before the Lord.
Some people will not come out to the Lord's battle against the mighty because they love the praise of men more than the praise of God. They prefer to stand with men and with the acceptable gospel than to risk persecution for the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Still others will watch and say it's not my battle. They do not want to get involved because it will cost them something, something they do not want to give up; a false peace, a false unity, a false reputation.
To come to the help of the Lord, to come to the help of the Lord against the mighty, one must be willing to forsake all. One must be willing to count the cost, deny oneself, and take up one's cross daily and follow the Lord. This needs to be done individually and collectively as the body of Christ.
In Judges 5, the LORD commanded Barak to take ten thousand men of the children of Naphtali and of the the children of Zebulun to go to battle against Sisera, the captain of Jabin's army, the king of Canaan who had a host of men and nine hundred chariots of iron.
The LORD commanded Barak to take of the tribes of Naphtali and of Zebulun to go to battle. Later, we see that some tribes did not take part in this victory. Why?
Barak was sent on foot into the valley; then we see "For the divisions of Reuben there were great thoughts of heart. Why abodest among the sheepfolds, to hear the bleatings of the flocks? For the divisions of Reuben there were great searchings of heart."
Could this be the result of a divided heart? Barak was sent on foot into the valley to meet with the mighty - he was sent on foot into the valley - here one must have faith and obedience. When you are sent on foot into the valley to do battle against the mighty who are mightier than you, a divided heart can stop you from entering that valley on foot. Was Reuben divided? Had they things that divided their hearts? Was their heart with their sheep? Was the heart of Dan with his ships? Was the heart of Asher with his business on the sea shore? Did Gilead stay on the other side Jordan because their hearts were not with the cause of the LORD. Had things and distance divided their hearts against the LORD and when the time came to enter into the valley on foot, their hearts, having divisions, were against the LORD? They either feared, or either felt it was not their battle, or they had other interests that manifested their hearts had divided against the LORD.
Barak was sent on foot into the valley. Jesus was sent on foot into the valley of death. To overcome all the foes of darkness, He had to be in complete obedience and subjection to the Father. Jesus came out victorious over all darkness.
Divisions of heart can make the head and heart have great thought: should I go, what will I lose, is it my battle, do I take part in the victory? Sometimes the heart can rationalize not entering on foot into the valley. A divided heart is unstable in all its ways. Jesus said a man cannot love God and mammom. He will either hold to the one, or he will let go of the other; but, he cannot hold both. The allusion is he thinks he can; but, when it is time to enter on foot into the valley, he will not go.
Nothing can be put above the Lord's will for the one who is sent on foot into the valley - he must be willing to go, even in the face of death with full assurance and complete trust in the Lord who sent him. He must love the Lord his God with all of his heart; a divided heart will fail.
Meroz, and her inhabitants, were cursed because they came not out to the help of the LORD, to the help of the LORD against the mighty.
Zebulon and Naphtali were a people that jeoparded their lives unto the death in the high places of the field.
A divided heart produces failure. We must love the Lord our God with all of our heart. When we are sent on foot into the valley of death, we must go with a single heart, and we will always be victorious.
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