I posted fairly recently a response indicating that angels are messengers according to scripture; and they also represent the pastors of given churches. Hence; the removal of such can indicate that the "candlestick" is removed and can refer to the truth departing and hence there being a "dead" church. That can refer to lifeless; legalistic faith and/or a compromised Gospel being let in the door; which could signify the death or removal of the original Pastor and/or someone new teaching falsehood. It can likely refer to an angel as well; those who would surround anyone (as promises in Psalm 91 would give us all as Spirit filled believers). Thence; the protection or hedge would be removed and this is due to the Holy Spirit's influence departing. It probably would also indicate that doctrines of demons would have them take over in the angelic realm.
God warns in Revelation 3:11 about not losing our reward or crowns. God will use whoever is willing to fulfill the Great Commission and to do His works as long as His Body remains on earth in the church; of course the warning is to individuals in that text but as we see with the Ephesian church when the first love is abandoned true doctrine can still be present but the Lord is no longer living within a congregation.
Later on in Revelation when the church is removed angels themselves (likely high ranking) cover large geographical areas proclaiming the Gospel themselves. They are presently here to guard us and protect us and strengthen us for the task at hand and are of course in the backdrop. Any angels demanding worship or working through an agent to preach falsehood are "anathema" and thus are accursed along with those who follow such damnable heresies.
Let us remain faithful so that the Spirit will not be grieved and that He will dwell within His followers. This requires fear of the Lord and resulting obedience out of love.
When we were resurrected with Christ, Christ is LIFE ( John 14:6), we became the BODY of Christ, each person is the church, the seven churches in Revelation is symbolic of MAN.
John 1:51 ....Hereafter, (when Christ was resurrected and became the life IN YOU, his Body) ye shall see heaven open, and the angels (ministering spirits) of God ascending and descending upon the son of man ---- Christ and YOU his BODY, HIS CHURCH .......
Psalms 91:12 They (the angels) shall bear thee up (Christ and YOU his body), lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Using the angels of spirits to minister to people on earth weird in the Bible Ki on Revelation 3 - 1 year ago
Which church in the book of revelation where the angel speaks ofUsing the angels of spirits to minister to people on earth weird in the Bible King James
I have not been much of a servant for Jesus. In my heart, I've always known he is real, but death and judgement seemed far away, and in my mind, I didn't believe 100% anyway, so its been easy just to forget about Him and do what I want. I didn't commit any terrible crimes according to man's law, but definitely have sinned according to God's.
In these crazy times, I should have been deceived the same way millions of others have been, but it's no contest. I've been able to see the truth, and the lies, for what they are the whole time. It's like my eyelids are taped open and I can't help but see the truth.
The only explanation is that Jesus granted me this undeserved insight, and must have done so for a reason. I just don't know what to do next.
It's a scary time for all of us, and I want to leave darkness for good and live in the light of God. I just don't know what to do next. I know to read the Word and to pray, but it feels like I should do more. Maybe I need help finding the right scriptures to study; how to learn more about God's plan for me from here for dummies.
Thank you for the explanation. I know it is never your intention to offend. We don't agree on everything but I always feel comfortable discussing those things with you.
I do understand free-will. We all have free-will to choose whether or not to obey God.
Personally, I do believe that God can violate a believers free-will. If God wills something to happen and it involves me, and He puts it on my heart, I believe it will happen the way He wills it to happen, no matter how much of my free will I choose to exercise.
Jonah was a great example. God says you're going to Nineveh. You see, Jonah had free will. Jonah exercised his free-will and went the opposite direction, against God's will. We know what happened there. Did God violate Jonah's free-will. It would seem so to me.
Brother, I know we are not robots. As far as God wanting us to choose freely what we want to do, I'm not sure I can agree completely with that.
I think about when Jesus was calling His disciples and He said follow me. That was not an invitation. It was a command. Remember some of the responses? "Let me first" go bury my dad, or "Let me first" go say goodbye to my family.
When Jesus said "follow me," it was a command. They had no choice. It was going to happen one way or another.
God does allow me to choose. But if my choice goes against what He has willed to to happen, His will is going to override my free-will choice.
I am about out of space so I will respond in a second post to your question on Philippians 2:12, and "Why fear and trembling."
It has nothing to do with loss of salvation and I'll explain why I say this.
Thanks for replying. I also believe the person John is engaged with in Revelation 1 is Christ.
I also believe the Angel of the Lord is the pre incardinate Christ.
I believe this is who Paul speaks of in Acts 27:22-23. And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man's life among you, but of the ship.
For there stood by me this night "the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve",
I believe the person speaking to John in Revelation is Christ, not only by the description but by what he says.
" I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
"SAYING",
I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last;
I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Before that verse 13 (ie in verse 12) it says, "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."
Why fear and trembling? Because if one doesn't follow the narrow road but walks the wide highway then no matter if that person is born again or not the end will always be distruction. And because God does not want us to get there, He uses all sort of ways to affect our behavior to make us follow His commandments.
Jesse I know what you believe about this topic, salvation, we have talked about that many times in the past. My purpose is to explain myself and not to offend you. Have a blessed week. Your brother in Christ.
Well I would say that "if it is Gods will for me to do something, and He puts it in my heart, then in my free will, I either choose to do it or not to do it. If I choose not to do it God will not force me to do it. He will work it in my heart but will not force me. He will not "magically" make me do what He desires. We are not robots who are programmed to do specific things, we have to want to do something.
But let me explain myself. God can not violate people's free will, not because He can not do it but because He wants us to choose freely what we want to do. This is free will. It would be easy for God to appear to all mankind and everybody then would believe in Him and accept Him and Kneel in front of Him. But in such a case people would be compelled to do so. But God wants us to choose Him freely without being complelled to do so. So it will be obvious who loves the truth and who loves the darkness.
In the case of a believer God acts as an earthy father. When we want our Kids to do something i.e. clean their rooms then we talk to them, we explain to them why this is good, etc, etc, hoping that after sometime our Kids will change they way they behave and do the proper thing. Even sometimes we use punishments or rewards to achieve what we want. But that has not always the result we like, because some kids (like sometimes mine) do not obey even if I use the hard way. So I keep working the proper thing in his mind and hope a time will come that my efforts will finally have a result.
Similarly God works in our heart to make us follow His commandments using all sort of methods. And His commadments is the narrow road we have to follow to arrive to a victorious end, the salvation of our souls.
In my post I only listed what I know, not what I believe. My belief is that that person who appears to John in Rev 1 was Jesus, but there are some things that make have some doubts.
1. It it true that in verse 1 Jesus says that He sent an angel to John to reveal him the future. So where do we get to see that angel in Rev?
2. The description of that person resembles very much to the appearance of an angel discribed by Daniel.
3. I know what that person among the 7 candlestichs says to John. He speaks as if though He is Jesus Himself. But this often occurs in OT when angels speak to people as if there were God themselves.
Examples: a. Who spoke to Moses on mount Horeb from within the flame in the bushes? Although it seems it is God in verse 5, it is actually the angel of the Lord (verse 2).
b. To whom Moses was talking to on mount Sinai when he got the 10 commandments and all the other instructions? From chapter 19 onwards it seems that it is God Himself but in Acts 7:38 Stephen says to Jews that it was an angel, "This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:"
c. In Judges 2:1-4, an angel appears to talk to Israeletes but he speaks as if he was God Himself. The same happens with Gideon (chapt. 6). So it seems in many cases in OT an angel sent by God talks as he is God Himself.
(Here I have to state that many believe that the angel of the Lord who often appears in OT is (a pre-incarnation) Jesus in the form of an angel)
So those things make me have some doubts about who is the person who speaks to John, Jesus or an angel?
Perhaps Psalm 110:3 is the verse I wanted to quote. Obedience; as Jesus Himself said occurs because we love Him ( John 14:15).
Perhaps also the concept of doing things as James states is a result of faith WITH works; without such it is not true faith at all.
All works of course originate from our heart; and it's condition of being either good or evil (good fruit vs bad) as the input result in the output and the "reward" in it. So for the unregenerate the law may constrain sin; for instance; but as Psalm 119 illustrates we learn to LOVE the law even though it is something without His strength that we cannot obey. So it is the same God who is present and seen in some form who we all interact with. Hebrews 6:4 makes it evident that there is some experiential commonality as it were with all men; but the difference is having the Lord make residence in our hearts vs. being on the outside looking in as it were. Admittedly these are tough concepts and no matter how much intellectual understanding there is we have certain things hidden to us as to the full meaning ( Deut. 29:29). Our own worst enemy is; of course our own self and sin within. Saints of God understand this and therefore He "chastises all He loves" ( Hebrews 12:6). This differentiates Judas Iscariot from Peter in regard to the betrayal and the end result; for example. In the short term; it may be hard to discern the wheat from the tares but for many time will prove what fruit is present in their lives although sadly it takes until the end of someone's life for it to be clear (and that is almost always bad news). In the end we can only exhort; and rebuke and hopefully some will be retrieved from "out of the fire" as it were. Those who are His own learn to listen to the HARD verses in scripture and are offended when a lukewarm message is being offered or it is compromised in any way.
I believe Alsie is asking about "the image given" in Revelation 1:13-16. Is the description literally as what Christ really looks like.
Are you saying the vision John is seeing is the angel in verse 1?
If so, I believe the person "who I believe is Christ answers this in the text especially in verses 17 and 18.
And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
17) And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18) I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
I am a little confused on what you are saying here. It seems as though you are implying that man's free-will overrides God's will and that God will not interfere with our free will.
Am I missing something here? This doesn't seem like something you would say, and I could be just misunderstanding you. Hopefully that's the case.
Can you please explain what you mean by saying "God will do anything from His side but man has to respond, if not God can do nothing."
Are you saying that if it is Gods will for me to do something, and He puts it on my heart, but in my free will, I choose to do my own thing, God cannot do anything?
I'm not trying to create problems here, but just trying to understand what you are saying.
Thank you for your time and for the things you share!
The Bible says that nobody has ever seen God neither they can because they will die. And with the word "God" all three persons are implied. So nobody has ever seen the Father, the Son(His divine appearance), and the Holly Spirit. The Son was born as a man and lived among people. So people have seen the fleshy(human) part of Son, man Jesus Christ. After Jesus was resurrected His fleshy body was transformed, it became immortal (His disciples saw that body but it can take any form since sometimes His disciples didn't recognise Him) and glorified. Now there are two interpretations (that I know) about the person that appears to John in Rev.
1. That person was Jesus in His glorified body.
2. That person is an angel who speaks in Jesus' sake. People who believe it this way use verse Rev 1:1, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; AND HE SENT AND SIGNIFIED IT BY HIS ANGEL unto his servant John:" So according to that theory that person was an angel. This seems logical because that person's appearance resembles much to the appearance of an angel described in Daniel 10:1-6.
About that verse in Philippians 2:13, "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure".
There is often a misinterpretation of this verse. It doesn't mean that God "makes us willing", that would be a violation of our free will. Instead what it means is that "God WORKS IN our heart to make us behave according to His Will" BUT (and this is very important to know) the outcome of His work in our heart does not depend on Him but it does depend on our heart. God will do anything from His side but man has to respond, if not God can do nothing. ie He has given us His commandments to follow and he works in us to make us obeying them but at the end the result is on us, not Him. GBU
Conclusion. My last posting basically was stating that we need to see things with "spiritual eyes". The Spirit is the Comforter; for instance but we should never be too comfortable not to recognize His distinct Holiness and how inadequate we are to even speak as the Prophet Isaiah and Ezekiel as well as John the "revelator" experienced when they got a glimpse of His full glory.
This distinguishes Him from Satan who "appears as an angel of light" ( 2 Cor. 11:14). When we get a true vision of God; therefore there is no messing about; we are "made willing" (Phillipians 2:13). As we see with Isaiah 6:8 there is no hesitation on God's part to send out those who are qualified to proclaim the truth. He has equipped us for what is needed; but sadly the "harvest is plentiful but the laborers are few" ( Matt. 9:37).
Jesus is the same yesterday; today and forever. That could be said of the entire Godhead.
Christ has the fullness of the Godhead bodily dwelling within as said in Colossians 2:9. The Spirit was in Him without measure ( John 3:34) and whoever has seen Him has seen the Father ( John 14:9). Nonetheless there is certainly a destinction in terms of roles with Christ being the sin bearer and the Father turning away when He bore our sins at Calvary ( Psalm 22:1). God cannot dwell in unrighteousness; and for that moment it was God's will for Jesus to be crushed ( Isaiah 53:5).
The Holy Spirit isn't given any distinctive appearance except in the beginning of the Gospels ( Luke 3:22 for example appearing like a dove); and with cloven tongues of fire at Pentecost ( Acts 2:3).
Revelation 3:21 indicates Christ overcoming all things; death could not hold Him ( Acts 2:24).
In some sense whether in the Preincarnate form or since His Resurrection He is both in the form of a man (the Man who is the second Adam as it were) who still bears the marks on His body being the first of the Firstfruits resurrected from the dead ( 1 Cor. 15:23) and of course beyond time as the Creator of all things ( Jn. 1:3 and several other verses) fully God. So there is distinction and unity with the "Trinity" as it were. When looking at His glory; we see the fullness of sight and sound (with mighty thunderings with His voice ( Ezekiel 3:12-13; and verses in Revelation; Psalms etc.) We should be aware as believers of our sinfulness (as the Spirit indicates in John 16:8) and we tremble at His presence. This is different than the reaction of the wicked who sense their destruction and love their sin more than God ( John 3:19). Nonetheless it seems that there are "revelations and visions" abounding; but few seem to describe that Holy fear of God of which is the beginning of understanding ( Psalm 111:10). Compare this with much music and preaching today that presents a sappy God without other attributes.
When we read Revelation 1:14-16. we see a symbolic picture of the Glorified Christ in his royalty.
His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
: His head and his hairs were (white) like wool, as white as snow. This speaks of his eternity, his the ancient of days.
: His eyes were as a flame of fire. That speaks of his penetrating insight of the total life of the church. He even knows our thoughts and intentions.
: And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace. This speaks of his Judgement.
: His voice as the sound of many waters. I believe that speaks of his authority.
I hope this helps along with the others contributing to answer your good question.
That's a great question, Alsie. I sort of take the middle road on that. Though the Book of Revelation has a lot of imagery in it, which was what was revealed to John so he could comprehend or make sense of it, there are also real people & real events depicted in it which have to be accepted factually. When I read Revelation 1:13-16, clearly we have the Person of Jesus before John, Who both looked at John and touched him. Jesus had a garment on with a chest sash and His Voice had a tone & pitch unlike anything he had heard. Although, certain aspects were possibly hid from John, so that Jesus' Hair, Eyes, Feet, & Countenance could only appear as unusually radiant, sufficient for mortal man to see. Maybe the heavenly beings see the Father & Son in some other way; the Father Who is Spirit & Jesus, the Man, God's Word made flesh, now glorified.
My question is concerning the image of Christ that is described in Revelation chapter one. Some people take this description literally as this being what he really looks like. I have always believed that since John was having a vision that was a spiritual image that was not what he would necessarily look like in the flesh. What is your opinion on this matter?
Revelation Chapter 1 tells us that the seven Spirits was the sevenfold Spirit of God. Revelation 4:5, along with Revelation 5:6 tells us that the sevenfold Spirit of God represent His eyes, the all- knowing and the all-seeing God.
Also, in Zechariah 4:10, it tells us that the seven Spirits are the seven eyes of God.
He that has the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars, from Verses 4 and 16 of Chapter 1.
The leaving of their first love ,opened the door to a graver error of the Nicolaitins. The separation of ministers and laity . The lording it over the laity .
That in turn led to accepting to doctrines of Jezebel . Which in turn led to the Balamites . Prophesying for money .
The church of which I am a part ,is in fact a prodigal church and has been since the reformation .
Where sound doctrine and biblical authority once again germinated and overcame the traditions of man.
I'm not sure we have travelled far .
For while we justifiably celebrate being " Born again " and give glory to God . That is but getting out of Egypt . Saved then by the Word of God the blood of a lamb and the power of God . A no people becoming A people .
But if you listen carefully we have made ' the promised land ' heaven and Jordon death .
And the wandering in the wilderness for 40 years the Christian norm.
When in fact it only took them just over two years to reach the promised land .
Egypt is but a type of the world and pharaoh the devil . Having been delivered from that " cruel bondage" we have forgotten that not only were we saved from but saved to! And that crossing the wilderness was but ' boot camp' .
Where we learn to live not by bread alone but by every Word that proceedeth from the mouth of God ".
Did not Paul warn the church not to be like them who " entered not in because of unbelief"?
Unbelief is not just not believing God its believing another message .
Did not Eve do just as much? And did not Paul express his grave concern of the church being as deceived as Eve?
When Jesus " I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it"
Does not mean that hell or the devil are giving the church a hard time but will not prevail .
For gates attack no one they are but the weakest points of a city wall and the most heavily defended .
It is the gates of hell that are in trouble for it is the church the Lord is building that is doing the ' troubling'.
To the church of Laodocia listen to what the Spirit says .
We are living in the Laodocian age . Of a church that thinks it is rich increased in goods and in need of nothing .
Yet in Gods eyes is poor wretched and blind and in need of eye salve .
Alongside this church is the Philadelphian church that in its own eyes is poor but in Gods eyes is rich .
There is but one church which is His body . There is then but one door .
How is it then that after the resurrection No door was a barrier to the Lord . But here he is knocking on the door of his own church and is unwilling ( you cannot say unable) to enter .
Some may think their church is the only church to which all must belong to be saved others they are part of that church which is his body and claim they are saved . The fact remains the Lord is outside knocking . While all those inside think he is inside?
God is everywhere for He is indeed omnipresent . Then who is outside? It is the Spirit of God .
The knocking on the door must be a call to repentance to the whole church . To all who are inside .
The promise however is only to those " who have ears to hear " not only that but who also " open the door " to THEM is the promise given.
Even as John 3:16 is a call to the whole world to repent but the promise is only given to those who do and believe .( in the biblical sense) .
The prosperity message ,the plethora of false prophets and apostles parading about Christendom shows we are in the last days .
If when Jesus on the way to Golgotha said to some women weeping for him " if they do this to the master when the wood is green,what will they do when the wood is dry?
Hebrews 1:1 states " hath in these last days spoken to us by His Son"
If 2000 years ago it was " the last days " then truly the wood was green . How much the more is the wood now dry and ready for the fire?
Amen Bro. PROPHECY...GBU....You are so right PROPHECY they don't realize that the wrath of God is the LOVE OF GOD.... Hebrews 12:6...Whom the Lord Loveth he Chastens.....And scourged every son whom he receiveth.. Hebrews 12:6....If ye be without Chastisment then are you bastards and not sons....Now are we the sons of God....Even in the natural we chastise our kids simply b/c we love them...Now no Chastening for the present seems to be joyous but grievous... Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount ZION THE CITY OF THE LIVING GOD, That HEAVENLY JERUSALEM..To huge host of Angels....PROPHECY GBU MY BRO.
God warns in Revelation 3:11 about not losing our reward or crowns. God will use whoever is willing to fulfill the Great Commission and to do His works as long as His Body remains on earth in the church; of course the warning is to individuals in that text but as we see with the Ephesian church when the first love is abandoned true doctrine can still be present but the Lord is no longer living within a congregation.
Later on in Revelation when the church is removed angels themselves (likely high ranking) cover large geographical areas proclaiming the Gospel themselves. They are presently here to guard us and protect us and strengthen us for the task at hand and are of course in the backdrop. Any angels demanding worship or working through an agent to preach falsehood are "anathema" and thus are accursed along with those who follow such damnable heresies.
Let us remain faithful so that the Spirit will not be grieved and that He will dwell within His followers. This requires fear of the Lord and resulting obedience out of love.
When we were resurrected with Christ, Christ is LIFE ( John 14:6), we became the BODY of Christ, each person is the church, the seven churches in Revelation is symbolic of MAN.
John 1:51 ....Hereafter, (when Christ was resurrected and became the life IN YOU, his Body) ye shall see heaven open, and the angels (ministering spirits) of God ascending and descending upon the son of man ---- Christ and YOU his BODY, HIS CHURCH .......
Psalms 91:12 They (the angels) shall bear thee up (Christ and YOU his body), lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.
God Bless YOU!
In these crazy times, I should have been deceived the same way millions of others have been, but it's no contest. I've been able to see the truth, and the lies, for what they are the whole time. It's like my eyelids are taped open and I can't help but see the truth.
The only explanation is that Jesus granted me this undeserved insight, and must have done so for a reason. I just don't know what to do next.
It's a scary time for all of us, and I want to leave darkness for good and live in the light of God. I just don't know what to do next. I know to read the Word and to pray, but it feels like I should do more. Maybe I need help finding the right scriptures to study; how to learn more about God's plan for me from here for dummies.
Any suggestions?
Thank you for the explanation. I know it is never your intention to offend. We don't agree on everything but I always feel comfortable discussing those things with you.
I do understand free-will. We all have free-will to choose whether or not to obey God.
Personally, I do believe that God can violate a believers free-will. If God wills something to happen and it involves me, and He puts it on my heart, I believe it will happen the way He wills it to happen, no matter how much of my free will I choose to exercise.
Jonah was a great example. God says you're going to Nineveh. You see, Jonah had free will. Jonah exercised his free-will and went the opposite direction, against God's will. We know what happened there. Did God violate Jonah's free-will. It would seem so to me.
Brother, I know we are not robots. As far as God wanting us to choose freely what we want to do, I'm not sure I can agree completely with that.
I think about when Jesus was calling His disciples and He said follow me. That was not an invitation. It was a command. Remember some of the responses? "Let me first" go bury my dad, or "Let me first" go say goodbye to my family.
When Jesus said "follow me," it was a command. They had no choice. It was going to happen one way or another.
God does allow me to choose. But if my choice goes against what He has willed to to happen, His will is going to override my free-will choice.
I am about out of space so I will respond in a second post to your question on Philippians 2:12, and "Why fear and trembling."
It has nothing to do with loss of salvation and I'll explain why I say this.
Thanks for replying. I also believe the person John is engaged with in Revelation 1 is Christ.
I also believe the Angel of the Lord is the pre incardinate Christ.
I believe this is who Paul speaks of in Acts 27:22-23. And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man's life among you, but of the ship.
For there stood by me this night "the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve",
I believe the person speaking to John in Revelation is Christ, not only by the description but by what he says.
" I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
"SAYING",
I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last;
I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
God bless.
Jesse
Before that verse 13 (ie in verse 12) it says, "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."
Why fear and trembling? Because if one doesn't follow the narrow road but walks the wide highway then no matter if that person is born again or not the end will always be distruction. And because God does not want us to get there, He uses all sort of ways to affect our behavior to make us follow His commandments.
Jesse I know what you believe about this topic, salvation, we have talked about that many times in the past. My purpose is to explain myself and not to offend you. Have a blessed week. Your brother in Christ.
Hello Jesse.
Well I would say that "if it is Gods will for me to do something, and He puts it in my heart, then in my free will, I either choose to do it or not to do it. If I choose not to do it God will not force me to do it. He will work it in my heart but will not force me. He will not "magically" make me do what He desires. We are not robots who are programmed to do specific things, we have to want to do something.
But let me explain myself. God can not violate people's free will, not because He can not do it but because He wants us to choose freely what we want to do. This is free will. It would be easy for God to appear to all mankind and everybody then would believe in Him and accept Him and Kneel in front of Him. But in such a case people would be compelled to do so. But God wants us to choose Him freely without being complelled to do so. So it will be obvious who loves the truth and who loves the darkness.
In the case of a believer God acts as an earthy father. When we want our Kids to do something i.e. clean their rooms then we talk to them, we explain to them why this is good, etc, etc, hoping that after sometime our Kids will change they way they behave and do the proper thing. Even sometimes we use punishments or rewards to achieve what we want. But that has not always the result we like, because some kids (like sometimes mine) do not obey even if I use the hard way. So I keep working the proper thing in his mind and hope a time will come that my efforts will finally have a result.
Similarly God works in our heart to make us follow His commandments using all sort of methods. And His commadments is the narrow road we have to follow to arrive to a victorious end, the salvation of our souls.
In my post I only listed what I know, not what I believe. My belief is that that person who appears to John in Rev 1 was Jesus, but there are some things that make have some doubts.
1. It it true that in verse 1 Jesus says that He sent an angel to John to reveal him the future. So where do we get to see that angel in Rev?
2. The description of that person resembles very much to the appearance of an angel discribed by Daniel.
3. I know what that person among the 7 candlestichs says to John. He speaks as if though He is Jesus Himself. But this often occurs in OT when angels speak to people as if there were God themselves.
Examples: a. Who spoke to Moses on mount Horeb from within the flame in the bushes? Although it seems it is God in verse 5, it is actually the angel of the Lord (verse 2).
b. To whom Moses was talking to on mount Sinai when he got the 10 commandments and all the other instructions? From chapter 19 onwards it seems that it is God Himself but in Acts 7:38 Stephen says to Jews that it was an angel, "This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:"
c. In Judges 2:1-4, an angel appears to talk to Israeletes but he speaks as if he was God Himself. The same happens with Gideon (chapt. 6). So it seems in many cases in OT an angel sent by God talks as he is God Himself.
(Here I have to state that many believe that the angel of the Lord who often appears in OT is (a pre-incarnation) Jesus in the form of an angel)
So those things make me have some doubts about who is the person who speaks to John, Jesus or an angel?
GBU
Perhaps also the concept of doing things as James states is a result of faith WITH works; without such it is not true faith at all.
All works of course originate from our heart; and it's condition of being either good or evil (good fruit vs bad) as the input result in the output and the "reward" in it. So for the unregenerate the law may constrain sin; for instance; but as Psalm 119 illustrates we learn to LOVE the law even though it is something without His strength that we cannot obey. So it is the same God who is present and seen in some form who we all interact with. Hebrews 6:4 makes it evident that there is some experiential commonality as it were with all men; but the difference is having the Lord make residence in our hearts vs. being on the outside looking in as it were. Admittedly these are tough concepts and no matter how much intellectual understanding there is we have certain things hidden to us as to the full meaning ( Deut. 29:29). Our own worst enemy is; of course our own self and sin within. Saints of God understand this and therefore He "chastises all He loves" ( Hebrews 12:6). This differentiates Judas Iscariot from Peter in regard to the betrayal and the end result; for example. In the short term; it may be hard to discern the wheat from the tares but for many time will prove what fruit is present in their lives although sadly it takes until the end of someone's life for it to be clear (and that is almost always bad news). In the end we can only exhort; and rebuke and hopefully some will be retrieved from "out of the fire" as it were. Those who are His own learn to listen to the HARD verses in scripture and are offended when a lukewarm message is being offered or it is compromised in any way.
Hope some of this helps. Agape. Rich P
I believe Alsie is asking about "the image given" in Revelation 1:13-16. Is the description literally as what Christ really looks like.
Are you saying the vision John is seeing is the angel in verse 1?
If so, I believe the person "who I believe is Christ answers this in the text especially in verses 17 and 18.
And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
17) And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18) I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
God bless.
I am a little confused on what you are saying here. It seems as though you are implying that man's free-will overrides God's will and that God will not interfere with our free will.
Am I missing something here? This doesn't seem like something you would say, and I could be just misunderstanding you. Hopefully that's the case.
Can you please explain what you mean by saying "God will do anything from His side but man has to respond, if not God can do nothing."
Are you saying that if it is Gods will for me to do something, and He puts it on my heart, but in my free will, I choose to do my own thing, God cannot do anything?
I'm not trying to create problems here, but just trying to understand what you are saying.
Thank you for your time and for the things you share!
The Bible says that nobody has ever seen God neither they can because they will die. And with the word "God" all three persons are implied. So nobody has ever seen the Father, the Son(His divine appearance), and the Holly Spirit. The Son was born as a man and lived among people. So people have seen the fleshy(human) part of Son, man Jesus Christ. After Jesus was resurrected His fleshy body was transformed, it became immortal (His disciples saw that body but it can take any form since sometimes His disciples didn't recognise Him) and glorified. Now there are two interpretations (that I know) about the person that appears to John in Rev.
1. That person was Jesus in His glorified body.
2. That person is an angel who speaks in Jesus' sake. People who believe it this way use verse Rev 1:1, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; AND HE SENT AND SIGNIFIED IT BY HIS ANGEL unto his servant John:" So according to that theory that person was an angel. This seems logical because that person's appearance resembles much to the appearance of an angel described in Daniel 10:1-6.
GBU
About that verse in Philippians 2:13, "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure".
There is often a misinterpretation of this verse. It doesn't mean that God "makes us willing", that would be a violation of our free will. Instead what it means is that "God WORKS IN our heart to make us behave according to His Will" BUT (and this is very important to know) the outcome of His work in our heart does not depend on Him but it does depend on our heart. God will do anything from His side but man has to respond, if not God can do nothing. ie He has given us His commandments to follow and he works in us to make us obeying them but at the end the result is on us, not Him. GBU
This distinguishes Him from Satan who "appears as an angel of light" ( 2 Cor. 11:14). When we get a true vision of God; therefore there is no messing about; we are "made willing" (Phillipians 2:13). As we see with Isaiah 6:8 there is no hesitation on God's part to send out those who are qualified to proclaim the truth. He has equipped us for what is needed; but sadly the "harvest is plentiful but the laborers are few" ( Matt. 9:37).
Agape; Rich P
Christ has the fullness of the Godhead bodily dwelling within as said in Colossians 2:9. The Spirit was in Him without measure ( John 3:34) and whoever has seen Him has seen the Father ( John 14:9). Nonetheless there is certainly a destinction in terms of roles with Christ being the sin bearer and the Father turning away when He bore our sins at Calvary ( Psalm 22:1). God cannot dwell in unrighteousness; and for that moment it was God's will for Jesus to be crushed ( Isaiah 53:5).
The Holy Spirit isn't given any distinctive appearance except in the beginning of the Gospels ( Luke 3:22 for example appearing like a dove); and with cloven tongues of fire at Pentecost ( Acts 2:3).
Revelation 3:21 indicates Christ overcoming all things; death could not hold Him ( Acts 2:24).
In some sense whether in the Preincarnate form or since His Resurrection He is both in the form of a man (the Man who is the second Adam as it were) who still bears the marks on His body being the first of the Firstfruits resurrected from the dead ( 1 Cor. 15:23) and of course beyond time as the Creator of all things ( Jn. 1:3 and several other verses) fully God. So there is distinction and unity with the "Trinity" as it were. When looking at His glory; we see the fullness of sight and sound (with mighty thunderings with His voice ( Ezekiel 3:12-13; and verses in Revelation; Psalms etc.) We should be aware as believers of our sinfulness (as the Spirit indicates in John 16:8) and we tremble at His presence. This is different than the reaction of the wicked who sense their destruction and love their sin more than God ( John 3:19). Nonetheless it seems that there are "revelations and visions" abounding; but few seem to describe that Holy fear of God of which is the beginning of understanding ( Psalm 111:10). Compare this with much music and preaching today that presents a sappy God without other attributes.
Hebrews 1:13,14,
Hopefully these are helpful
When we read Revelation 1:14-16. we see a symbolic picture of the Glorified Christ in his royalty.
His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
: His head and his hairs were (white) like wool, as white as snow. This speaks of his eternity, his the ancient of days.
: His eyes were as a flame of fire. That speaks of his penetrating insight of the total life of the church. He even knows our thoughts and intentions.
: And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace. This speaks of his Judgement.
: His voice as the sound of many waters. I believe that speaks of his authority.
I hope this helps along with the others contributing to answer your good question.
God bless.
When we all get to heaven,
What a day of rejoicing that will be!
When we all see Jesus,
We'll sing and shout the victory!
Hallelujah.
Thanks, Alsie Florence
Isaiah 22:21-25, Isaiah 9:6-7, Isaiah 49:22,
James 1:5,
Hopefully these are helpful in your study
Revelation Chapter 1 tells us that the seven Spirits was the sevenfold Spirit of God. Revelation 4:5, along with Revelation 5:6 tells us that the sevenfold Spirit of God represent His eyes, the all- knowing and the all-seeing God.
Also, in Zechariah 4:10, it tells us that the seven Spirits are the seven eyes of God.
He that has the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars, from Verses 4 and 16 of Chapter 1.
That in turn led to accepting to doctrines of Jezebel . Which in turn led to the Balamites . Prophesying for money .
The church of which I am a part ,is in fact a prodigal church and has been since the reformation .
Where sound doctrine and biblical authority once again germinated and overcame the traditions of man.
I'm not sure we have travelled far .
For while we justifiably celebrate being " Born again " and give glory to God . That is but getting out of Egypt . Saved then by the Word of God the blood of a lamb and the power of God . A no people becoming A people .
But if you listen carefully we have made ' the promised land ' heaven and Jordon death .
And the wandering in the wilderness for 40 years the Christian norm.
When in fact it only took them just over two years to reach the promised land .
Egypt is but a type of the world and pharaoh the devil . Having been delivered from that " cruel bondage" we have forgotten that not only were we saved from but saved to! And that crossing the wilderness was but ' boot camp' .
Where we learn to live not by bread alone but by every Word that proceedeth from the mouth of God ".
Did not Paul warn the church not to be like them who " entered not in because of unbelief"?
Unbelief is not just not believing God its believing another message .
Did not Eve do just as much? And did not Paul express his grave concern of the church being as deceived as Eve?
When Jesus " I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it"
Does not mean that hell or the devil are giving the church a hard time but will not prevail .
For gates attack no one they are but the weakest points of a city wall and the most heavily defended .
It is the gates of hell that are in trouble for it is the church the Lord is building that is doing the ' troubling'.
We are living in the Laodocian age . Of a church that thinks it is rich increased in goods and in need of nothing .
Yet in Gods eyes is poor wretched and blind and in need of eye salve .
Alongside this church is the Philadelphian church that in its own eyes is poor but in Gods eyes is rich .
There is but one church which is His body . There is then but one door .
How is it then that after the resurrection No door was a barrier to the Lord . But here he is knocking on the door of his own church and is unwilling ( you cannot say unable) to enter .
Some may think their church is the only church to which all must belong to be saved others they are part of that church which is his body and claim they are saved . The fact remains the Lord is outside knocking . While all those inside think he is inside?
God is everywhere for He is indeed omnipresent . Then who is outside? It is the Spirit of God .
The knocking on the door must be a call to repentance to the whole church . To all who are inside .
The promise however is only to those " who have ears to hear " not only that but who also " open the door " to THEM is the promise given.
Even as John 3:16 is a call to the whole world to repent but the promise is only given to those who do and believe .( in the biblical sense) .
The prosperity message ,the plethora of false prophets and apostles parading about Christendom shows we are in the last days .
If when Jesus on the way to Golgotha said to some women weeping for him " if they do this to the master when the wood is green,what will they do when the wood is dry?
Hebrews 1:1 states " hath in these last days spoken to us by His Son"
If 2000 years ago it was " the last days " then truly the wood was green . How much the more is the wood now dry and ready for the fire?
You've touched on some very good points!
God bless you.