Romans
King James Version (KJV)
Romans Chapter 5 Discussion Page 3
Viewing page: 3 of 12
< Previous Discussion Page Next Discussion Page >
Do you have a Bible comment or question?
Posting comments is currently unavailable due to high demand on the server.
Please check back in an hour or more. Thank you for your patience!
Isaiah 60:1 (KJV)
You answered my question by saying: The apostles did not ever say that they obeyed the "10" commandments. Really? They stated they obeyed Gods commandments, many times.
You also state: I do agree that they did follow 9 of those commandments. I'm sorry but this really makes no sense.
There is no scripture showing that God removed the 4th commandment. Jesus didn't, and the Apostles couldn't, that is why there is no scripture that confirms this. Jesus was confronted many times regarding the Sabbath, and if he had wanted to cancel the sabbath he had many opportunities to do so.
So in your mind 9 of the 10 commandments are ok to follow because the apostles didn't, even though you have absolutely NO scripture stating they DID NOT follow the 4th commandment.
The 10 Commandments stand until the end of time!
Matthew 5:18
"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
I will agree to disagree with you at this point. In summary, I do believe this disagreement relates to how you and I interpret the scriptures.
God Bless Brother
Behold he cometh with clouds ;
And every eye will see him ...
Hardly secret or silent ?
Thank you for your response.
I commend you for citing verses that clearly show that Paul is talking to actual believers. They were "Holy Brethren". They had believed in Jesus Christ and were very surely baptized in water. That would make them part of the Church.
However, very serious warnings are given to not lose faith and to not stop trusting in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Please take specific note that the Apostle Paul does not say "you" but "we". In other words, he includes "himself" in those warnings.
Hebrews 2:1 "Therefore WE ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which WE have heard, lest at any time WE should let them slip."
Hebrews 2:3 "How shall WE escape, if WE neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;"
Hebrews 3:12 "Take heed, BRETHREN, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of UNBELIEF, in DEPARTING from the living God."
Hebrews 3:14 "For WE (includes Paul) are made partakers of Christ, if WE HOLD the beginning of our confidence stedfast UNTO THE END;"
Hebrews 12:15-17 "Looking diligently lest any man FAIL OF THE GRACE OF GOD; lest any ROOT OF BITTERNESS SPRINGING UP trouble you, and thereby many be DEFILED; Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat SOLD his birthright. For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, HE WAS REJECTED: for he found NO PLACE OF REPENTANCE, though he sought it carefully with tears.
Hebrews 6:6 "If they shall FALL AWAY (apostatize), to renew them again unto REPENTANCE; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."
2 Peter 2:20 "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and OVERCOME, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning."
Overcome means definitely. No return.
Thank you for taking the time to answer my 2 questions.
1) You mention that the commandment at Leviticus 12:3 was a "suggestion". When the Law was give to Israel, they made a covenant between themselves and God. Please read Exodus 34:3-8. Notice specifically
Exodus 24:3 "And Moses came and told the people ALL THE WORDS of the LORD, and ALL THE JUDGMENTS: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, ALL THE WORDS which the LORD hath said will we do."
That does not sound like a "suggestion" but a command - an order. Jewish people have thus very meticulously made certain to circumcise their children. Moses was almost killed by the LORD because he had not circumcised his son. Please read Exodus 4:24-26. That seems to me that the LORD takes circumcision very, very seriously. In fact, in the first century, even believing Jews believed that a believer in the Messiah must be circumcised to be saved.
Acts 15:1 "And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, EXCEPT YE BE CIRCUMCISED after the manner of Moses, YE CANNOT BE SAVED."
2) You mention that the first century Church followed the 10 commandments.
I do agree that they did follow 9 of those commandments. They are re-iterated in the New Testament or Covenant set up by Jesus through his blood mentioned at Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Luke 22:20. However, nowhere do the Apostles every tell the Church, in clear words, "remember to keep the sabbath". Could you provide me 1 verse where an apostle clearly says to keep the sabbath - that actual word "sabbath" being used? In fact, Paul says the opposite at Colossians 2:16 and Galatians 4:10.
3) Now to answer your question. The apostles did not ever say that they obeyed the "10" commandments. They said that they obeyed the commandments. Those would be the commandments of the New Testament given by Jesus Christ through his Apostles via the letters of Romans to Revelation.
I welcome your thoughts again.
Good day to you, Dan.
:)
Here's What being in the presence of believers want do.
Change the inner Man.
Galatians 5:22-24 (KJV) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
This fruit is interior, And should be the engine that drives a Christian to serving and righteous living. This is against our nature, ( THE NATURAL MAN. )
Fruit is virtue from being born again, connected to the TRUE VINE "EVERLASTING Life".
A non born again professor / false Christian only can control the exterior, and
Tries to clothe himself with righteousness.
Try to DO the right thing, SAY the right thing, But Love for the brothern, humility, Longsuffering, ect... is absent. Void of being regenerated by the spirit. Proud of his exterior work, Nothing on the inside.
That's what the Law couldn't do!
Jesus came to CHANGE the HEART, And the spirit guides us with passion, not by command.
God bless.
:)
May CHRIST IN US grace us with HIS wisdom and HIS understanding.
Romans 8:29 For whom he did FOREKNOW...
Very few will disagree that God creates every man; since, he created the reproductive process of man; therefore, he FOREKNOWS everyone.
Romans 8:29 For whom he did FOREKNOW, he did ALSO PREDESTINATE to be conformed to the IMAGE of his SON, that he might be the FIRSTBORN among many BRETHERN.
Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did PREDESTINATE, them he also CALLED (presently God is ONLY CALLING those that will be PRIEST in HIS KINGDOM) (the servants in the kingdom will be called at the second resurrection), and whom he CALLED, them HE JUSTIFIED: and whom he JUSTIFIED, them he also GLORIFIED.
Ezekiel 5:3 Thou shall also take thereof a FEW in number ....
Ezekiel 5:4 Then take of them again, and cast them into the midst of the FIRE (IN CHRIST; Hebrews 12:29), and burn (purify; Malachi 3:2-3) them in the FIRE (IN Christ); for thereof (the Priest) shall a FIRE (the saints judging the world; Revelation 21:8) come forth to the house of Israel.
NO ONE is going to alter GOD's PLAN; whatever God PREDESTINED that you are going to do in his kingdom, YOU WILL DO.
All is the works of God; he uses man to do the labour.
1 Peter 1:2
Ephesians 1:5
Romans 9:13
John 5:70
Ephesians 1:4
I Think we should start a thread on Salvation, and track God's plan of salvation all the way back to Genesis
and see how we received it, Then we would be able to minister to one another in a more virtuous debate. I think readers benefit more spiritually understanding salvation and obedience, sanctification, fruitfulness, Rather than worrying about losing something he might not even have!!
Here's the issue with what you stated.
"becomes a hater of God - and remains firmly in that state for the rest of his life - will no longer be able to be saved. There is no more forgiveness for them."
That's not in the verses we're discussing.
If it was I would say that person was never saved, He was Enlightened, "The Word was brought to him but he never truly was converted. I believe as Jesse believes Enlightening doesn't mean the receiver accepted it.
However I believe These were believers because of previous verses.
Hebrews 3:1. Wherefore, ( HOLY BRETHREN,)
partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
And also they were on need of Milk instead of meat. ( Milk is for babies in Christ. not for sinners. Sinners need light.
I think verses 7,8 and 9 speaks of Maturity and fruit.
I don't believe the Issue is Salvation, In Hebrews 6. and NO you can't loose your Salvation.
God bless.
A Biblical study on the 2 resurrections provides a generous amount of insights, rather than point blank omissions.
The first resurrection is only of the house of Israel; no where is Judah mentioned. It's the lost sheep whom Jesus first set out after, the house of Israel buries the bones of Gog for seven months. ( Ezekiel 39:12) The tribes of Levi, Benjamen, and Judah, 12,000 each have converted to the Lord Jesus Christ. They are the remnant of Israel.
Some like to imagine being part of the first resurrection, but the likelihood of that happening is slim to none. The only ones ever mentioned as "first fruits" are the one hundred forty four thousand, elect.
The second resurrection: ( Ezekiel 37:1-14) solidifies the order and nature of the resurrections. Here we see dry bones from the house of Israel and Judah stand up together as the whole house of Israel. The house of Judah was never part of the first resurrection, as those from the house of Israel were. This represent the second resurrection allegory of Israel.
The second resurrection begs the need for a new earth and new heavens for billions of people entering...souls.
You can disagree with anything I've said. If you have better insight, please share.
Your 1st question:
1. Did God make a mistake when he created a request (not a commandment) to circumcise?
No, God did not make a mistake. It was a request, per the scripture below:
Leviticus 12:1
"And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying," 2 "Speak unto the children of Israel, saying," and continued on....3And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.
God said to Moses SPEAK to the children of Israel! This circumcision was a REQUEST at that time. It was not a commandment in the same sense as a commandment in God's 10 Commandments. VERY IMPORTANT distinction!
Your second question:
You ask why did the church of the 1st century change God's request of circumcision. Because it wasn't one of God's 10 commandments.
The apostles believed and followed God's 10 commandments, and they did not change any of God's 10 Commandments!
Here is apostle John stating that fact:
1 John 2:3
"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments."
Now Brother Michael, please answer one question for me: Do you believe that the apostles were wrong in following and keeping God's 10 Commandments?
I await your answer Brother.
God Bless
Thank you for your thoughts.
Yes, that is what Hebrews 6:4-6 is indeed saying. A person who becomes a true Christian and remains one for years but who later decides, of his own free will, to fall away and no longer serve God and becomes a hater of God - and remains firmly in that state for the rest of his life - will no longer be able to be saved. There is no more forgiveness for them.
Hebrews 10:26 "For if we sin WILFULLY after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,"
2 Peter 2:20 "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and OVERCOME, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning."
There are 2 types of sins. The sins we make because of our imperfection - which can be forgiven - and the willful, rebellious sin that we chose to do because we no longer love God but have decided our our own free will to be against God. Notice this very carefully at
1 John 5:16-17 "If any man see his brother sin a sin which is NOT unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin NOT unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
John speaks of 2 sins. One is unto death and the other is not. Weaknesses due to our imperfect flesh, is not a sin unto death. But, wickedness not due to our imperfect flesh but due to a heart that has become evil by choice, is a sin unto death - the second death.
Yes, "all unrighteousness is sin" says John. Even if I just lust momentarily at a woman, I have committed a sin. However, sin can be forgiven - unless it is willful. Willful and persistent sin with no repentance is unto death and there remains to more sacrifice for that kind of sin.
I welcome your further thoughts.
Good day.
I think you've answered the question yourself. A Christian must continue to believe in order to be saved. We agree. However, that is our choice. We can continue to believe and trust or we could chose to stop obeying God. It is our choice.
Now, you say if he stops believing God, then he never really was a true Christian. Regardless, what is for sure is that a person has to continue believing and that we do have a choice in that.
Therefore, we have to fight the human sin in us and the appeal of the world that could lead us away from Christ. Example, we could be tempted to start practicing fornication. That is our choice. We either fight the flesh or we give in and fornicate. That is why Paul warned the Hebrew Christians to not give in and fornicate.
Hebrews 12:16-17 "Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
Maybe Paul was not fully saved. What if he did leave Christ and and became a willful sinner and fornicator? That question we will never know. All we can know for sure is that WE must chose to believe and obey God and continue doing so in order to inherit the blessing of eternal life.
2 Timothy 4:7-8 "I" have fought a good fight, "I" have finished my course, "I" have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
Notice, Paul say "I" have fought a good fight. "I" have finished my course. "I" have kept the faith. It required a conscientious decision on Paul's part and a personal struggle to do so. For that reason, he had a crown of righteousness laid up for him.
A "Christian" who practices willful, serious sin will not be saved.
Kindly.
Be blessed
It is not enough to just believe in Jesus and you will be now and forever saved. There is no such thing a a get out of hell free card because you believe.
Yes, we must fight the good fight. We are in a battle here on this earth against Satan and evil.
Some seem to think that with Jesus death we can just believe and carry on our normal lives and we will be saved by his Grace. If this was true why would Jesus speak like this in the following two scritures.
John 5:14
"Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee."
John 8:11
"She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."
Jesus said: SIN NO MORE! Lest worse things will come to us that sin.......
Jesus DID NOT say to those two sinners 'just believe in me and and my grace will take care of you!'
In summary: Jesus is telling all of us to TAKE ACTION!
God Bless
I can't agree that when someone truly believes in Christ that they automatically receive the Holy Spirit. Belief alone does not save anyone. James 2:19 seems to indicate that. I took a look at Acts 10:44 as you've asked. But also I have to look at Acts 10:43.
This is where the beauty of the Greek text comes in because it gives me a different perspective. Acts 10:43 in the KJV says, "To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins."
There are two things about this verse: The word believes is a present participle which means continuously believing. It never stops. Secondly, the term "in him" is the most common term for believing in Christ. It is EIS AUTON in the Greek text, and it means "into him," a very different meaning than just believing "in Him."
It is a word that expresses surrender so that whosoever continually believes and continually surrenders to Christ, will receive forgiveness of sins. Emphasis on continually. This shows who a saved person is. Their belief and surrender never end. There are a lot of people who believe in Jesus Christ but are void of His indwelling Spirit.
Again, with the branches being broken off, I have to say they were broken off because of unbelief. Gentiles were grafted in, and it says they likewise can be removed just like the Jews were. But this is not talking about a saved individual losing their salvation. A Gentile can also be a dead branch in the tree just like the branches
A branch can be in the vine and not produce fruit. It will be cut off. The branch that remains in the tree will produce fruit continuously because it is feeding off the life source of the tree or vine which is Christ. That branch will never be cut off.
I don't believe Hebrews 6:4 is referring to saved individuals, but to Jews who were following along but never surrendered their life to Christ, as Judas did for 3 years.
Thanks for the conversation.
I errored on previous reply. I believe
Hebrews 6. is talking to believers, BUT not about SALVATION. If we can loose our salvation can we be restored? Every one sins, no one is perfect. Romans 7 ect..
Jesus is our advocate with the Father if we do sin. 1John 2:1. ect..
Visiting the text.
Hebrews 6:4-6. For it is ""IMPOSSIBLE" for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY, TO RENEW THEM AGAIN UNTO (REPENTANCE) seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
IF THIS VERSE IS TALKING ABOUT SALVATION THAT MEANS YOU GOT ONE CHANCE. "" FOR IT IS ( IMPOSSIBLE ) TO RENEW THEM AGAIN!! If you sin it's over!
Read on. NOTICE VERSE 9.
Hebrews 6:7-9. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
9) But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and THINGS THAT ACCOMPANY SALVATION, though we thus speak.
The Entire Msg to the Hebrews is about maturity.
they was under persecution and was still mengaling in Judaism.
Fruit and gifts accompany salvation through the Holyspirit, Not Judaism.
Salvation and SANCTIFICATION is by the work of the spirit and is a GIFT "un Merritted."
This Way is called God's election.
Romans 9:11. (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, NOT OF WORKS, BUT OF HIM THAT CALLETH;)
2 Timothy 1:12. For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
God bless
You say there is two fundamental opinions among believers:
1 Fight the good fight
or
2 The battle is already won
To anyone who understands the scriptures, this is not two opinions; but, ONE TRUTH. We fight the good fight; BECAUSE, the battle IS WON!
I quote your words: "To say that the 10 Commandments are no longer valid, is to say that God made a mistake when he created the 10 Commandments!"
Did God make a mistake when he created the commandment to circumcise at
Leviticus 12:3 "And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised,"
Why, then, did the first century Church change that commandment of God and say that it is not necessary to get circumcised in Acts 15?
Please, if you could answer, specifically, my 2 questions above, I would appreciate it.
Thank you for your time.
Good day.
I agree, we can only be born again BY RESURRECTION.
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in THE FIRST RESURRECTION: on such the second death has no power, but they shall be Priests of God and Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
This happens before the second judgement in Revelation 20:11-13
Luke 20:36 Neither can they die anymore...
Christ is telling the Sadducees; who did not believe in resurrection, that the ones APPOINTED TO DIE with him on his cross would never die again.
Psalms 102:18 This shall be written for the generation to come; and the people which SHALL BE CREATED shall praise the Lord.
Psalms 102:20 ...to loose those APPOINTED TO DEATH
Luke 20:36 ....being the children of the resurrection.
1 Peter 4:17 For the TIME IS COME that JUDGEMENT must begin at the HOUSE OF GOD.....
Hebrews 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose HOUSE WE ARE...
John 5:22 For the father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgement unto the Son.
2 Corinthians 5:10 We must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ....
We were RESURRECTED with Christ and Christ is dwelling IN US; therefore, Christ's THRONE is IN US and were are BEFORE the THRONE being JUDGED NOW by Christ (the word of God).
1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed (flesh), but by incorruptible, by THE WORD (SPIRIT) of God, which LIVETH and ABIDETH forever. (you will never die again after you died ONCE with Christ).
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is APPOINTED unto man ONCE TO DIE (with Christ on the cross or later at the second death), but after this then the JUDGEMENT.
Hebrews 9:28 .....and unto them that look for him shall he appear a SECOND TIME (the first time was in the flesh; the second time in SPIRIT, you don't see him he is like a thief in the night) WITHOUT SIN UNTO SALVATION.
In Hebrews 6 I believe the writer is taking to believers, BUT ABOUT SALVATION. I'm at work, I will address Hebrews 6 on my next post.
Thanks. God bless
When Jesus speaks, he speaks the words from his Father - God.
John 12:49
"For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak."
John 12:50
"And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak."
Jesus states in John 12:50 "And I know that his commandment is LIFE EVERLASTING."
To say that the 10 Commandments are no longer valid, is to say that God made a mistake when he created the 10 Commandments!
I believe that Satan is certainly hard at work here in this world, with so many people that now believe that Gods 10 Commandments are no longer valid.
God Bless
It's puzzles me how you admit they're in unbelief but insists they're saved.
If you're in unbelief you're not saved, and you can't loose what you didn't have.
Judas was a follower, did he loose salvation? Or did he ever have it?
Concerning Acts 10:44. Look at the previous verse.-
Acts 10:43. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever ( BELIEVETH ) in him shall receive remission of sins.
Yes, you get the Holyspirit the moment you believe. And when you do you will ABIDE, and want be broken off. "Refer to what Brother Jesse has already declared on this"
A Christian may start out fruitless but he want stay there, God is the vine dresser,
Same concept here in Mathews,
Matthew 7:17-20. Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A GOOD TREE CANNOT BRING FORTH EVIL FRUIT, NEITHER CAN A CORRUPT TREE BRING FORTH GOOD FRUIT.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
My thoughts would be go back and consider the verses already given
God bless