Romans Chapter 5 Discussion Page 4

Hello S Spencer,

1) When someone "truly" believes in Christ Jesus, he automatically receives the Holy Spirit (see Acts 10:44) and is attached to the vine, Jesus Christ. This is nicely explained in the parallel account of John 15:1-6 at:

Romans 11:19-21 "Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be GRAFFED IN. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and THOU STANDEST BY FAITH. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest HE ALSO SPARE NOT THEE.

Notice, the "gentile" believer, like a branch, is graffed into the olive tree because of his faith in Christ Jesus. But, Paul says to fear - why? Because God can "spare not thee" as he "spared not" the unbelieving Jews.

2) The apostle Peter was writing to faithful believing Christians. See 2 Peter 1:1. He is giving them a warning against false prophets. See 2 Peter 2:1. He specifically says about these ones that they "have forsaken the right way". See 2 Peter 2:15. So, at one time, they were on the right way. At 2 Peter 2:20, he says that they "had escaped the pollutions of the world" but, unfortunately, "they are again entangled therein". They have returned to the world.

Thus, they are likened to a dog who has vomited out his vomit and left it for good. But, then, he returns. Or, the sow (pig) who used to role in the mud. Then he leaves the mud and is cleansed. But, unfortunately, he then returns. In a similar way, these ones who believed in Christ Jesus and received the Holy Spirit and were cleansed of their old, sinful ways, have now returned to their sinful practices. Peter says "too bad for them". Jude says they have "died twice". See Jude 14.

3) As for Hebrews, Paul is speaking to believers.

Hebrews 6:4 "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST,". This happened when they believed. See again Acts 10:44.

I invite your further thoughts."

Hello Dan,

Thank you for your comments.

Can a person decide to keep only a portion of the laws of his city or country? Can a person keep only a portion of the terms of his rental lease or of his work contract? In like manner, can a person keep only a portion of the contract (Mosaic Law) made between God and Israel. There were over 600 laws given. The 10 commandments are only the first 10 of those 600+ laws.

Notice what Israel said when the Mosaic Law (or Covenant) was inaugurated by blood at Exodus 24:3-8:

Exodus 24:3 "And Moses came and told the people ALL the words of the LORD, and ALL the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, ALL THE WORDS which the LORD hath said will we do."

James 2:10-11 "For whosoever shall keep the WHOLE LAW, and yet offend in ONE POINT, he is guilty of ALL."

If a person keeps the 4th commandment but not the other commandments of the Old Covenant, he is breaking the law. That is why the apostle Paul, under inspiration, said the law had to be changed.

Hebrews 7:12 "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity A CHANGE ALSO OF THE LAW."

Hebrews 8:13 "In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to VANISH AWAY."

Replaced by the New Covenant (or Testament) by Jesus' shed blood.

Luke 22:20 "Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the NEW TESTAMENT in my blood, which is shed for you."

I gladly obey those commandments of Jesus Christ ( John 14:15), of the New Testament, which were communicated by inspiration and revelation to the Apostles - from Acts to Revelation. See 2 Corinthians 12:7 and 2 Timothy 3:16.

I kindly welcome your further comments.

I bid you a good day.

Hello Jesse.

Thank you for your comments.

1) When someone "truly" believes in Christ Jesus, he automatically receives the Holy Spirit (see Acts 10:44) and is attached to the vine, Jesus Christ. This is nicely explained in the parallel account at:

Romans 11:19-21 "Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be GRAFFED IN. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and THOU STANDEST BY FAITH. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest HE ALSO SPARE NOT THEE.

Notice, the "gentile" believer, like a branch, is graffed into the olive tree because of his faith in Christ Jesus. But, Paul says to fear - why? Because God can "spare not thee" as he "spared not" the unbelieving Jews.

2) The apostle Peter was writing to faithful believing Christians. See 2 Peter 1:1. He is giving them a warning against false prophets. See 2 Peter 2:1. He specifically says about these ones that they "have forsaken the right way". See 2 Peter 2:15. So, at one time, they were on the right way. At 2 Peter 2:20, he says that they "had escaped the pollutions of the world" but, unfortunately, "they are again entangled therein". They have returned to the world.

Thus, they are likened to a dog who has vomited out his vomit and left it for good. But, then, he returns. Or, the sow (pig) who used to role in the mud. Then he leaves the mud and is cleansed. But, unfortunately, he then returns. In a similar way, these ones who believed in Christ Jesus and received the Holy Spirit and were cleansed of their old, sinful ways, have now returned to their sinful practices. Peter says "too bad for them". Jude says they have "died twice". See Jude 14.

3) As for Hebrews, Paul is speaking to believers.

Hebrews 6:4 "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST,". This happened when they believed. See again Acts 10:44.

I invite your further thoughts.

Dear Earl,

Maybe you were intending to respond to me on a another thread- not sure.

There are 2 funamental differences of opinion among Christians:

1. Fight the good fight

2. The battle is already won

It seems some people believe Jesus did all the work and all someone needs to do is respond to an altar call once in their life for about 3 minutes and they are instantly saved for eternity. To them this means they can kick back and enjoy life, even enjoy sin, because grace, right?

That is a fundamental different perspective than one who reads the verses about running the race, keeping the armor of God on, watching out for the devil as a lion on the prowl waiting to devour you, living not of the world, being a light, realizing you're persecuted for your beliefs and trying to stand strong in the face of evil. Realizing that all the parables (warnings) Jesus gave about most people not making it to heaven is real, and realizing that He was even warning His own followers (Christians). If Jesus already paid the debt and won then why did Jesus preach at all? And why did Paul? Was that a waste of time? Should we fear God who can send us to hell as it says in the Bible?

Here's a page of verses related to running the race, etc. But if the battle is already won then why would any of this be written in the Bible and why would it be needed? Link

Is it conceivable that a lot of people will be surprised they aren't allowed into heaven? Even Christians who thought they were 'good people'? Who cried out Lord, Lord... and begged and rationalized. I think the reality is one group sometimes can rest in God's grace more, but the other group should be afraid of going to hell, should get their act together, should obey Jesus, should not follow the world of sin anymore. Jesus said to avoid sin, not enjoy sin. Satan is giving people fake news and people are believing it. Matthew 7:21

2 Corinthians 5:10 - all will have to face judgment, including Christians who assume they're saved, before salvation is actually given.

Earl,

We will always need to wait for judgment day to be saved, not here on earth. We were set up to fail, and must die to be made whole.

Finding a personal relationship with Jesus does not make anyone impervious to sin. Being "saved" can be a vehicle to proper behavior, a way to self reflect on how weak the flesh is.

You can only be born-again through resurrection.

God bless the one hundred forty four thousand first fruits.

Earl,

( Leviticus 26:18)

Knowing that God warned and punished both houses of Israel for backsliding, adds richness to your point. God said he would punish them seven times (7 x 360 day for a year = 2,520 years) for disobedience.

The house of Israel (10 tribes) were taken captives by Assyria in 721 BC + 2,520 = 1800 Briton, "the isles of the sea"

The house of Judah (3 tribes) were taken captives by Babylon in 604 BC + 2,520 = 1917 Balfour Declaration

Everything in its time, and revealed in one moment.

Michael.

PG 2.

Hebrews 6:12-19. I Erred on page 2, "I meant unconditional covenant, not oath.' Here goes-

Gen.15;1-12.

Vs 6: And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Vs 8:And he said, Lord GOD, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?

VSES. 9-12. And he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.

And he took unto him all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each piece one against another: but the birds divided he not.

And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away.

And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.

God put Abraham to sleep and entered the covenant alone. only God can break it. ISSAC WAS PROMISED!! AS WELL AS WE!

Galatians 4:28. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 'Unconditional!

Vs 26-27:But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

LOOK AT THOSE UNDER THE LAW IN-

VS 25. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. MT SINAI IS A MT YOU COULD NOT TOUCH! ( COULD'NT KEEP ) THE LAW WAS GIVEN THERE.

GEN. 22 Abraham offered up his only begotten promised son, because he believed in the previous promise/covenant. AND KNEW GOD WOULD HAVE TO RAISE HIM FROM THE DEAD.

Hebrews 11:17-19 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

Of whom it was said, "That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

The crucifixion of Christ played out.

GB

Michael.

PG 1. "PAGES OUT OF ORDER' 3-1-2.

Hebrews 3:7-11.Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.

Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

Israel had a hardened heart. Which is the condition to all men without the "NEW" heart given by the Lord when saved.

( Hebrews 4:2-3. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.)

( For we which have believed do enter into rest,) as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Jude 1:5. answers itself, " they believe not' ( Was not saved )

James 2:21&26.

21:Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

26:For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

James is speaking of works "AFTER" salvation not for salvation.

Philippians 1:6. Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Philippians 2:13. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. This is what James 2:21 is speaking of.

Hebrews 6:12-19, and James 2:21.

These are 2 seperate accounts of Abraham in Hebrews 6:12-16 and James 2:21-23.

"Hebrews the promise was Issac confirmed by an oath". Played out in Gen. 15:1-12.

James was "Abraham having faith in THAT promise". Played out in Gen. 22:1-14.

MICHAEL.

PG 3

Matthew 7:24-27 (KJV) Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man,"WHICH BUILT HIS HOUSE UPON A ROCK:"

And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

And every one that "HEAR" these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which "BUILT HIS HOUSE ON SAND:"

And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. ( ONE MAN BUILT HIS HOUS UPON JESUS FINISH WORK ON THE CROSS.) Parallels to Hebrews 10:26-29.

( You can know the way, that doesn't mean you believe in it. you trying to climb up some other kind of way.)

2 Peter 1:8-11. Parallels with 2 Corinthians 13-5. Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, "except ye be reprobates?" (FRUITLESS)

2 Peter 1:8-9"For if these things be in you," and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. IF WHAT THINGS BE IN YOU? ANSWER IN VERSES 5-7. "FRUIT" IF YOU LACK IT YOUR NOT SAVED. YOU KNOW THEM BY THER FRUIT. MATHEWS 7:16.

Romans 11:20-21 (KJV) Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Why were they broken off ? "Because of unbelief?

( Well if you're broken off because of unbelief and it takes belief to be saved then you're not saved, because you didn't believe whom he sent. John 5:38. And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. ( So how can you loose what you didn't have?)

Brother adam, may christ in us grace us with his wisdom and his understanding.

we don't have to wait for judgement day to be born again (saved).

ephesians 1:4 according as he hath chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

romans 5:8 but god commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were sinners he died for us.

psalms 106:8 nonetheless he saved them for his name sake, that he might make his mighty power to be known.

isaiah 43:25 i, even i, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake....

jeremiah 14:7 o lord, though our iniquities testify against us, do thou it for thy name ....

ezekiel 20:44 and ye shall know that i am the lord, when i have wrought with you for my name .....

there is dozens of scriptures that say, god does everything for his name; we are the beneficiaries of his works; for his name.

we are graced!

Hi Richard. When I need a good washing on the Word: I actually read Proverbs to look for my weak ie Being wise and avoiding snares.

Jobs friends sounded reasonable, but at the end they were corrected by God.

To know to do something and then not do it. I don't think Jesus cared for that.

Like Paul, I got knocked off my high horse, and saw Truth standing in front of me. Let us all remember our beginnings, when we didn't know much at all.

If we forget practical, we are standing close to political. Just a weird thought...

Dear Brother Richard in Christ,

You stated a long list of sins that can be committed.....the list is probably much longer....and I do understand your point. You make a good point, and I also do believe that any sin committed can be attributed to one of the 10 Commandments in "one form or fashion".

I think most christians will agree our goal is to live as sin free as possible, but when we fail... we need to ask for forgiveness and try a little harder. God surely knows if we are trying or not.

In summary, I will say that disregarding any of the 10 Commandments will most surely be problematic for many.

Many if not most Christians today just throw the 4th Commandment in the trash....in my opinion not a good way to start a successful journey to heaven.

I don't want to follow the crowds......

Matthew 7:14

"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

Why does Jesus say this? Does he mean it? I think he does, and I believe him!

I want to be with the FEW THERE THAT FIND IT!

God Bless

God bless to all first of all, I have seen a lot of discussion on the commandment this is my view, Yes we we are commanded to follow obey and let these commandments be the guidance of our lives, and inm sure we all wake up when he wakes to follow each and everyone but as we see in the bible it also a great large list too very wide of what not to do, but do we understand that God has already let us know and told us in his word, we were conceived in sin, and saved by the shedding of his blood, but yet we are still sinners, we wrestle against the flesh inside of us each day, He already knows we can not follow each commandment each and every day, God know we will fall and fail on daily bases, it is why he says come to him to confess our sins, sincerely ask for repentance and forgiveness. Now we all know this does not mean go on keep sinning because God will forgive us, no indeed!!! that would be disastrous and dangerous to our salvation to do that. I believe God means and teaches us in the bible each day, rise up and do your very best to not sin, have an eye on on the enemy, be able to identify him, don"t stay focused on him keep your eye, your mind, your heart stayed on the Father, so we may use the tools the Lord has given us to overcome him and the sinful life. God yet again, says there is no one without sin no not one. We must remember to discuss the bible and all his truth with love and kindness, let's fall into the role of judgement toward each other, if some ones says something we don"t agree we must say we don't agree, or maybe say nothing and pray for the other person so that they may find the truth, and lovingly and move on share the good news we know, let's be careful in judging others how they were taught where they were taught, leave judgment and correcting up to our Father God for he he knows how to teach and correct us. Let share the word in love. Love all God Bless

A Christian who genuinely follows Jesus can have assurance of salvation, but no one is technically saved until after they are judged on Judgment Day. Those who believe the opposite have a lot of hurdles to overcome and rationalize, like why someone would go to heaven or hell before they are even judged, or why people would go to heaven, only to come down to earth to re-enter their old bodies, only to meet Jesus in the air and go back to heaven- all before judgment apparently.

Instead, people will more likely die and be 'asleep' until Christ comes, then will rise and ascend to a place of judgment. Some believe in a waiting place like purgatory, but I think there's ample scriptural evidence that says we'll just be asleep. Even if a thousand years passes, to the person sleeping it will likely only seem like only a second has passed before you wake and be judged.

You are so right brother dan , its not complicated ,we all know the standard that Christ set for us to follow ,things only get complicated if we find ourselves in situations that as Christians we shouldnt have allowed ourselves to get sucked into in the first place , keep our own lives as simple as we possibly can and dont look for problems where there arent any , if we are thoroughly grounded in our faith ,if we trust in Gods love and mercy and if we are trying every day to keep the life and example of Christ before us ,things are very simple ,always do the right thing ,even if it results in ourselves being the loser its worth it ,know when to argue and when to just leave people to their own ego's ,Jesus knew it was pointless talking to some people ,so should we .

Brother Dan, may CHRIST IN US grace you HIS wisdom and HIS understanding.

I am going to QUOTE YOU.

It's very simple, the 10 commandments.

Jesus said:

John 14:15

If you love me keep my commandments.

This is not supposed to be complicated.

Believe and trust in what Jesus says.

This is exactly what he told Israel. If they would have keep his commandments they would have remained in a right relationship with God. They would not have needed a NEW COVENANT. Since keeping God's commandments is so simple and easy; WHY NOT JUST DO IT and you will not need the NEW COVENANT; But, history proves this effort fails one hundred percent.

Ezekiel 36:25-27 .... I WILL CAUSE YOU TO WALK IN MY STATUTES....

Believe and trust in what JESUS SAYS.

Good post Adam. Our righteousness is to exceed those who tried to follow the whole law of Moses. Having the Holy Spirit to guide, and teach, us the right way. Which is after Jesus Christ our Lord. The way, the truth, and the life!

God Bless.

Hi Brother Dan,

As I'm sure you've seen my previous posts about this. I'm sorry if my perspective offends you but it is way more vast than just the Ten Commandments. If that was all God wanted us to follow that would be pretty simple. I'm going to put together a list for you of just some things we are to avoid.

Some people think to "love one another" is simple. Actually it can be the hardest thing in life. To put loving others before everything, even your own self.

This is also just a simple list to guide us and is not everything we must repent of or stay away from: evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murder, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness, Being filled with all unrighteousness, maliciousness, full of envy, debate, malignity, whisperers, Backbiters, despiteful, proud, boasting, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful, uncleanness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, drunkenness/drugs, revellings, lovers of their own selves, boasters, unthankful, unholy, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, love of pleasures more than loving God, sowing discord between bretheren, filthy communication out of your mouth, cursing, anger, etc. Then this posted after several places "they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

It is much more vast than just the Ten Commandments. This is why God has Blessed us to receive the Holy Ghost and we are to live after the Spirit of Christ in us. Not after the flesh. Which we are in these bodies until our journey here is over. Our fight is to war against what is evil(in the flesh) and do good(live after the Spirit). Stated at the end of Galatians if we strive to produce good fruit of the Spirit against such there is no law.

God Bless.

Hello,

John 14:15 where Jesus says to obey His commandments, He didn't specify to only obey the 10 Commandments and He didn't say to only obey the greatest commandments. He didn't specify or narrow it down to which commandments, so by default, I believe it means all of them. I think this includes things spoken to us through the Holy Ghost, as it says in John 14:26...

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

James 2:10. We should strive to be obedient, while loving and forgiving ourselves too when we get off track. Ephesians 2:8.

Brother Richard in Christ,

It's very simple. The 10 Commandments.

Jesus said:

John 14:15

"If ye love me, keep my commandments."

This is not supposed to be complicated.

Believe and trust what Jesus says.

God Bless

I understand "no new thing under the sun " to pertain to human beings ,earthly things , the way we are ,as humans we have changed our enviroment significantly but we as a species are no better at all ,we are still murdering lying greedy selfish idolators etc ,all this technological progress but we still have people dying of starvation ,the haves still have and the have nots are still doing without even the basic necessities and we all turn our faces away ,roll over in bed and pull the covers over our heads and go to sleep ,we dont change ,weve always been the same .

The old testament is a big part of the Rock of my Salvation ! Jesus was brought up with it ,studied it believed it ,it would have been an enormous strength and comfort to him to actually read about himself in it and its a massive strengthener and comfort to me also ,any one who ignores it is missing out on a large chunk of Gods words and interaction with humans , it helps us to understand Him and ourselves better ,its a true treasure ,ignore it and you are really seriously missing a limb ! Thats how important it is .If God has spoken to us i want to know what He said ! Dont you ? !

Brother Michael,

You and others here are confusing and trying to complicate the issue....by trying to mix in the old ceremonial laws into the 10 Commandments.

Below you state:

Do you keep God's commandments by getting circumcised as per Leviticus 12:3?

Do you keep God's commandments and dwell in booths for seven days every year as per Leviticus 23:42?

Do you make fringes on the border of your garments as per God's commandment at Numbers 15:38?

Do you go up to Jerusalem three times a year as per God's commandment at Exodus 23:17?

God's 10 Commandments DO NOT include any of the above listed old testament ceremonial laws.

Brother Michael: Do you believe this scripture verse below spoken by Jesus?

John 14:15

"If ye love me, keep my commandments."

God bless

Dear Brother Vince,

I agree, when we read the Bible and pray for understanding from God's Holy Spirt we are blessed with full understanding.

We SHOULD NOT depend on men or the church to guide us.....but the TRUE scripture.

It's hard for me to observe many modern day christians and church's believing that they can ignore God's 10 Commandment's.

To me, it all boils down to the most powerful verse spoken by Jesus Christ:

John 14:15

"If ye love me, keep my commandments."

This verse is small but it says it ALL....

If we disagree with this verse, we disagree with Jesus Christ!

God Bless

Hi Vince,

I'm not here to get in between this discussion. Just wondering who are "these people" who teach and keep people from reading the Old Testament you have stated twice now? Obviously no one here, I know of, as the Old Testament is regularly spoken of and promoted.

There is a New Testament(Covenant). Here's God speaking of it in the Old Testament, Jeremiah 31:31-34. Yes the Old Testament is quoted several hundred times in the New Testament. Though there are many things in the New Testament not in the Old Testament.

Just to be clear to maybe help others you are conversing with. What are God's Laws or God's Commandments you are stating we should follow? All of the 613 Mitzvot laws or just the Ten Commandments?

Jesus Christ is the way.

1 John 3:22-24 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of Him, because we keep His commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.

And this is His commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

And he that keepeth His commandments dwelleth in Him, and He in him. And hereby we know that He abideth in us, by the Spirit which He hath given us.

Romans 13:8 & 10 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

God Bless.

Michael,

Thank you for asking me to share my thoughts. Here they are:

In John 15:6, the word abide (MENO) denotes permanency. There are branches that are in the tree but are dead branches, and there are those branches that abide permanently in the tree or vine. It says if a man abide not in me. So this is talking about someone who is not saved. A saved person is a person who is abiding in Him, and that person is the one who abides permanently. It's the dead branches (Unsaved) that are cast into the fire. These branches do not produce fruit because they are dead.

I can't take Romans 11:21 without considering Verses 19 and 20 also. Why were the natural branches not spared? These branches were broken off because of their unbelief. This is referring to the Jews who rejected their Messiah. No salvation there.

2 Peter 2:20-22 does not tell me they were saved. Having knowledge of the Lord does not mean they were saved. In Verse 21, the emphasis is on what they know. They haven't surrendered their life to Christ. Verse 22 would indicate to me that they were never saved. They had the knowledge of the truth, but never surrendered to Christ.

There has to be a transformation and a change because a pig will always go back. You can wash it, put a bow around its neck, spray it with perfume, and you know what's going to happen. It's going to dive right back into that mud hole again.

Both verses in Hebrews are referring to Jews who were following along with the teachings and were being enlightened to the truth, but never surrendered their life to Christ because of the persecution they would face if they were to do so. Do you realize what it would cost a Jew, even today if they were to give up Judaism to receive Christ as their Messiah? These Jews were being enlightened to the truth but instead of surrendering to Christ, they decided to return back to Judaism.

Vince,

I can tell you that I am very secure in my salvation. Jesus Christ has given me eternal life. He gave me Himself, and He is eternal. As long as He lives in me, I will remain saved. And he said He will NEVER leave me. I'm not being arrogant. I'm just trusting in God's saving power. I'm sorry if you're not secure in your salvation. It would be hard for me to live day by day wondering if this is going to be the day I lose my salvation. I place my full trust in Jesus Christ when it comes to salvation. I don't agree that eternal security or "Once saved, always saved" comes from Satan. I would be more inclined to believe that Satan wants us to believe we can lose our salvation. Satan is the one who accuses us and puts doubt and fear in our minds and causes us to have doubts.

I've read through Revelation and I do not see any concrete evidence of a true believer, one who loves the Lord and keeps His commandments, losing their salvation. Jesus said if you love me, you will keep my commandments. That is not a challenge for us to try and keep them. He's giving us a factual statement. YOU WILL keep them. Why? Because His Spirit dwells within and causes that person to keep His commandments.

I'm also sorry to hear that you have been taught not to read the Old Testament. No one has ever taught me that. If you feel you might lose your salvation, I would start looking for verses that show you that you have eternal security in Christ Jesus. That's my hope for all who have doubts about their salvation, that they may find comfort in the one who has saved them, the one who has promised to never leave them, and the one who is keeping them until the day He comes back to redeem them!

Hello Vince,

Thank you for your response. Yes, we both agree that we must obey God's commandments and remain faithful until death to inherit the blessings. Where we don't, perhaps, see eye to eye is what are the commandments of God today.

Do you keep God's commandments by getting circumcised as per Leviticus 12:3?

Do you keep God's commandments and dwell in booths for seven days every year as per Leviticus 23:42?

Do you make fringes on the border of your garments as per God's commandment at Numbers 15:38?

Do you go up to Jerusalem three times a year as per God's commandment at Exodus 23:17?

If you answer no, it seems to me that you don't, after all, obey God's commandments. Jesus and the Apostle John did not say, "If you obey the 10 commandments", but rather, "If you obey the commandments" (all the commandments). The question arises, though, which commandments?

I would suggest the commandments of the New Covenant (or Testament) found in the portion of our Bibles called the New Testament.

As for Matthew 5:17-18, please note one important point - it says till all be fulfilled. The purpose of the law was fulfilled when Christ offered up his perfect life in sacrifice. Then, it was done away with. Notice:

Galatians 3:23-25 "But before faith came, we were kept under the law (a schoolmaster), shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore THE LAW WAS our SCHOOLMASTER to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But AFTER that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster (the law).

That's why Jesus also said at the parallel account of Matthew 5:17-18 found at Luke 16:16.

Luke 16:16 "The LAW and the prophets WERE UNTIL JOHN: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it."

Then, Jesus set up the New Covenant.

Luke 22:20 "Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you."

I welcome your further thoughts.

Good day, Vince.

Hi Michael.

It's 10:45 pm here in Ga. I will be glad to continue our conversation tomorrow after work. I have to get up at 4am.

Goodnight and God bless.

Hi Vince,

I was wanting to answer your question, "If God, Himself, told us that there is no New Thing under the Sun, why do we have a New Testament?"

Good question.

I would suggest you ask God that question since he himself prophesied through his prophet Jeremiah that he would set up a New Covenant (or Testament).

Jeremiah 31:31-32 "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant (testament) with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant (testament) that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant (testament) THEY BRAKE, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

Notice why God sets up the New Covenant. It says they brake (in modern English, broke) the Mosaic law covenant or testament. Thus, when a contract is broken, you have to set up a new one.

Hebrews 8:7 "For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second."

Hebrews 8:13 "In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away."

God is God. He does what he wants. We can be sure that whatever he does is just and perfect.

I welcome your comments.

Good day.