Romans Chapter 5 Discussion Page 5

Daniel Rudolph and Jesse,

There is no such thing as "Once Saved Always Saved", that's straight from Satan himself. God told John Himself what he would do to Christians not keeping the Commandments.

( Rev 2:12) And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;

13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.

16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

God Himself is rebuking his Church and threatened to kill them with the sword of his mouth, which signifies Hell. But why would God do such a thing? Because people were not keeping the commandments, eating things sacrificed unto idols, commiting fornication, which are all Laws but since we have been taught not to read the Old Testament, we are ignorant of these things.

Answer me this, If God, Himself, told us that there is no New Thing under the Sun, why do we have a New Testament? We don't, its all one, connected. All the Disciples and Apostles studied and quoted the ,"so called Old Testament". Everything that they preached and taught came straight from there but these people keep us from even looking into it.

Read the remainder of Revelation chapter 2 and 3 for yourself, he's rebuking 6 of the 7 Churches and threated to kill them! These people were indeed followers of Christ but had Hell dangled over there heads. All Praises to the Great I AM!

Hello S Spencer,

Regarding Hebrews 6:13-19, I would direct your attention specifically to verse 15.

Hebrews 6:15 "And so, AFTER HE HAD PATIENTLY ENDURED, he obtained the promise."

Compare that with Hebrews 6:12.

Hebrews 6:12 "That ye be not slothful, but followers of them WHO THROUGH FAITH AND PATIENCE inherit the promises."

James 2:21 "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?"

What would have happened had Abraham developed a wicked heart and refused to obey God? What if Abraham had cursed God and returned to his original place of residence - the land of Ur? Would he have inherited the promises?

What happened to Israel when they became bad? Did they inherit the promised land? Were they (that generation) not all destroyed in the desert and did not enter the promised land?

Hebrews 3:10-11 "Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest."

Jude 1:5 "I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having SAVED the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward DESTROYED them that believed not."

1 Corinthians 10:5 "But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness."

God's promises are certain. They will never fail. They are, in fact, like an anchor. So we can absolutely trust God. However, for us to benefit from those promises, we must exercise faith in God - unwavering trust in obeying God and all that he asks of us.

James 2:26 "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD also."

2 Peter 1:10-11 "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election SURE: for IF ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Good day.

Hello Michael,

I totally understand your prospective, but lets think for a min. Did Paul and the other

Apostles contradict what Christ himself came to tell us? Christ said: ( Matthew 5:17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. So I ask you, has the Heaven and Earth passed away? not at all. So, Here is Christ, himself telling you that the Law is not fulfilled or the Prophets. He also told us to keep his commandments, am I right?

( John 15:10) If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Here is Christ giving you a definition of what the Love of the Father is, it's keeping his commandments.

( 1 John 5:3) For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

( 1 John 5:2) By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

( John 14:15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.

I can go on and on, The Commandments are a must, it's not an opinion of the Disciples, it's the Doctrine of Christ. The Churches have lied to us when they say we don't have to keep the commandments.

Now, you say once saved, a person must keep himself in God's Love, I showed you what God's love is, Keeping the Commandments but you have twisted that as well. ( Matthew 24:13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. This means that you are not saved until the end, meaning if you die now or when Christ returns. The scriptures are self evident, they need no interpretation from man.

The Creator gave us a road map and free will, Choose wisely but I beg anyone reading this, don't let the Church do your work, Christ gave you Books, read them and pray for understanding, The Spirit will guide you into all Truth!

Hello Vince,

Thank you for your comments. I was wanting to respond specifically to your comment, "I guess they think Christ died on the cross so we can be Lawless."

No, I do not believe that Jesus died for me so that I could be lawless. I do want to obey God's Laws. However, what has God commanded me to do? Would you suggest that I be circumcised so as to keep God's Law recorded at Leviticus 12:3? Why would I do that when the Apostles decided in Acts 15 that I need not be circumcised in order to serve God.

So, what do I obey. As a Christian, I obey the instructions that the Apostles gave to the first-century Church in the epistles from Romans to Revelation. They never tell me to keep the Sabbath or be circumcised or keep the festivals of Israel. In fact, they tell me the opposite:

Colossians 2:16 "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:"

Galatians 4:10 "Ye observe days (sabbaths), and months (lunar month), and times (festivals), and years (sabbatical). I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain."

I obey the New Testament made between God and the Church of God via the mediator Jesus Christ since I am a Christian. I do not obey the Old Testament made between God and ancient Israel via the mediator Moses. I am not an Israelite.

Please see Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:7-13.

Notice that the Bible is separated into 2 portions - the Old Testament and the New Testament. Jesus inaugurated the New Testament with his shed blood. See Luke 22:20. These are the laws that I obey - God's laws for Christians in the New Testament.

I kindly invite your comments.

Good day.

Hi Jesse,

The Bible warns many times that a person can lose their salvation. Here are a few places.

John 15:6 "If a man abide (remain) not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

Romans 11:21 "For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee."

2 Peter 2:20-22 "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Hebrews 6:4-6 "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Hebrews 10:26-29 "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

I welcome your thoughts.

Good day.

Daniel,

I don't know of any place in scripture that teaches that a person who belongs to Christ can end up in Hell. No Christian who has been truly born of God's Spirit will ever end up in Hell.

The entire salvation process from start to finish is all of God. The only thing we as human beings can contribute is the sin from which we need to be saved from. Now, once we are saved, at what point does salvation go from God's grace to human works? Are we not saved by God's grace alone according to Ephesians 2:8-9?

If we believe we can lose our salvation, what do we have to do to lose it? Again, if it is something we do to lose it, then it is no longer grace, but works on our part.

If you can please share with me any place in scripture that says Christians can end up in Hell, I am open to checking out what you can show me that teaches that.

Thank you.

Amen Jesse.

Great declaration of clear truth.

To go along with the truth you presented brings us back to Genesis to the "UNCONDITIONAL" promise God performed "ALONE" to Abraham 430 years before the law given.

Hebrews 6:13-19. For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,

Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.

And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.

Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil.

Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of PROMISE. Galatians 4:28.

Greetings to all,

My feelings of believers, in Christ, being divided by all types of "doctrine and beliefs" is very saddening. I come as a peacemaker. As I have seen and been involved with debates about many things such as(needing to speak in tongues to know you have the Holy Spirit, keeping the 7th day Sabbath, you only have to believe to be saved, etc).

I so understand that no one is exactly the same and we may have different perspectives on things. Us being able to have peaceful conversations with one another is a Blessing. Even though we all being different, with different gifts and abilities, Christ is the same.

I just want to focus now on what I feel is most important. Love. If we truly live our lives with a pure heart founding ourselves on loving one another. We are fulfilling the law and God's Will. There is nothing greater than love. As Jesus Christ stated there is no greater love than to lay down his life for his friends. We should lay down our lives for Jesus Christ and let Him be the author of our lives. Him showing His love for us as He gave His life, as a perfect sacrifice, to save us from our sins. Also how much our Father loves us by sending His own Son to be a free gift of Salvation. That we may all be one in Him. He is the only way to the Father. The Lord searches hearts and knows all who are His. Let the Holy Ghost lead you to follow after Christ in His ways. To do what pleases Him.

In truth I say that I love you all and all of you are in my prayers every day. I could go on and on though I want to just read the Holy Bible. I shall leave a just a couple Scriptures for you all that the Lord brought me to that fit this post.

Romans 13:8-10, 1 John 4:7-19.

In humbleness, God Bless you all!

(Part 3)

Temeko,

The most powerful Scriptures of God's keeping power are found in Romans 8:38-39. It says, "For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor powers, nor any thing which has come, nor things coming, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

The only way a person can be saved is by a spiritual birth from God, and the only way a person can keep his salvation is through the keeping power of God.

This is what the Bible teaches about salvation. Salvation is permanent. It is man who has changed the emphasis from salvation by God to salvation by man, and it is part of the apostasy of the last days. People today are being told that they are saved because of some followed formula, but Jesus said in Matthew 7:16 that believers would be known by their fruits, not by their human works.

If a person believes they can lose their salvation based on something they do, then it is a works-based salvation and has nothing to do with the Spirit of God and God's power to keep us saved.

I place my trust in God and His power to keep me saved until the day he comes to redeem me. He says He is the one who is Keeping me and I believe and trust in His promise. It is Christ who lives in me. He has promised to NEVER leave me nor forsake me. And as long as He lives in me (Which He says He will never leave), I will be saved. And that is why I believe in the permanency of salvation.

My salvation is not based on what I do or don't do. It is strictly based on what God has done for me. God called me, and I responded to the call and received Christ. He saved me, and it is through His power alone that I remain saved. I cannot trust in my flesh to remain saved because my flesh will never submit to the things of the Lord. I have to trust in the one who saved me, the one who has given me His Spirit, and the one who is keeping me saved!

If salvation is permanent (not lost) why is it that people (Christians) find themselves in hell.

(Part 2)

Jesus Himself said in John 6:37, "All that the Father gives to me will come to me; and the one coming to me I will NEVER CAST OUT." Jesus goes on to say in John 6:39, "And this is the will of the Father who has sent me, in order that of all which he has given to me I SHOULD LOSE NOTHING, but should raise it up in the last day." If you read John 17:11-12, you see that we are kept by God's power.

I firmly believe in the permanency of salvation because the Bible teaches that God is the One who saves and He does so from out of His mercy. Paul tells us in Ephesians 2:8 that grace, faith, and salvation are gifted from God.

In 1 John Chapter 5 Verse 18, John says "We know that everyone who has been born from God does not practice sin; but the one who has been born from God, God IS KEEPING him, and the evil one does not touch him." John also says in John 10:27-29, "My sheep hear my voice and I know them; and they follow me. And I give to them eternal life; and they will NEVER PERISH FOREVER and not anyone will seize them from out of my hand. My Father who has given them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to seize them from out of the hand of my Father."

Paul emphasized the keeping power of God's Spirit. He says in Ephesians 1:13-14, "In whom also after having heard the Word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also, after having believed, you were SEALED with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the GUARANTEE of our inheritance, for redemption of the possession, for the praise of His glory."

Paul says again in Ephesians 4:30, "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God in whom you were SEALED FOR THE DAY OF REDEMPTION."

(One more post to come)

Temeko,

Salvation is the most important issue here and I need more than one post to give you an answer to your question, so please bear with me.

(Part 1)

There are those who believe that salvation can be lost and then there are others who believe in the permanency of salvation. I personally believe that salvation is permanent and here's why:

First of all, the Bible clearly teaches that salvation is based solely on God's Spirit coming into the spirit of a human being; and in so doing, causing that person to become a new creation in Christ. A person's experience of regeneration by the Holy Spirit is an act of God, not of man.

According to the Bible, the salvation process begins with God the Father. Jesus said, in John 6:44, "No one is able to come to me unless the Father who has sent me should draw him; and I will raise him up in the last day."

In the early Church, the requirement for salvation was the presence of God's Spirit dwelling within a person. Paul said in Romans 8:9, "Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, this one is not of Him." Salvation happens only when God's Spirit enters and remains (Permanently) in a person's spirit, thereby causing spiritual birth.

God is the sole source of salvation. The Bible also teaches that every saved person is KEPT by the power of God. 1 Peter 1:5 says that believers are "The ones who are BEING KEPT in the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." Paul says in Galatians 5:17, "For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are opposing to one another; in order that you should not do what you want."

These scriptures show that believers cannot be taken away from Christ by the flesh, because the Spirit of God is dwelling within to prevent that from happening.

More to follow:

Thank you kindly.

Thank you for answering my last question, here's what I need to know ?

Is the theory once saved always saved correct?and can you please explain salvation to me what does salvation mean?and can it be lost.

Temeko,

In 1 Peter 4:18, it says, "And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

The word "scarcely" in the Greek text is a word that means difficulty. Jesus said that we would go through trials and difficulties as believers. What this is saying is that if the righteous are saved with difficulty accompanying them, not that it's difficult to get saved, but once we're saved, difficulty accompanies our salvation, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

I mean if we're going through hard times and we're saved, wow, wait 'til the sinner comes under the judgment of God. They won't even be found!

Hello Temeko, the book of Romans was written to the Romans, who are Gentiles. Paul, of course, was an Isrealite from the Tribe of Benjamin. The Gentiles were not given the Laws, Statutes and Commandments ( Romans 2:14) Only Isreal. Paul was explaining that the Law alone will not get you into the Kingdom, but by Grace and truth ( John 1:17). Most people don't understand what truth is because we have been taught not to read the Old Testement, but the truth is none other than the Laws of God ( Psalm 119:142), except animal sacrafice, which is the only law that was fullfilled on the Cross because Christ was the Perfect Sacrafice. We are commanded to keep the Laws that were given in the Torah ( Romans 3:31). Believe me, many will totally disagree, i guess they think Christ died on the cross so we can be Lawless but what will we be judged by in the Book of Revelations? We will be judged by our works!! (Revelations 20:13). Shalom!

Hello Tomeko,

Unfortunately, many misunderstand what being saved by grace means.

Yes, there is nothing we could do to save ourselves. Jesus had to die for us to save us. However, we have to repent of our sins and believe (or trust) in Jesus Christ as God's means of removing our sins and saving us. Repenting means that we tell God that we are sorry and that we no longer want to live in sin.

But, once saved, a person must keep himself in God's love.

Jude 1:21 "Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life."

John 15:10 "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide (remain) in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide (remain) in his love."

We also need to walk in the light if we are to have the blood of Jesus wash away our sins.

1 John 1:7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

The apostle Paul fought a good fight to remain in God's love and thus could receive the crown of righteousness.

2 Timothy 4:7, 8 "I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Perhaps, an example could help.

A man kills another man. He will be executed. The judge has mercy on him and tells him he will free him if the man repents and promises to not repeat his act. The man agrees. The man was freely forgiven as an act of grace and mercy. There was nothing he could do to save himself. But, now, he must keep to the terms and not kill again. If he does, he will be executed.

Philippians 2:12 "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

I bid you a good day.

If we are saved by grace and not works,why does the scriptures say the righteous scarsley make it in?

Find her post on your pc or phone( look for a thread link; probably in your email. Click on the thread link. Then her reply link.

Find her post in room history in the numbered links at the bottom of this page. It's in there, you'll find it. Click on REPLY once or many.

We will see the new comments in here again.

Yesterday I posted a comment in regards to a senseless act of murder.I had stated how we are born into sin,we as a whole/human race are not as good as we think. I really angered one lady whom evidently took that statement as "All children are born evil"? and just a nasty hateful text.To make a short question long.How can I respond to her ? I prayed that the Lord would give me the right words.

God loves judgement!

But unrighteous judgement he hates .

It's so important to understand His word , it's his judgement as well so we can do things right.

Many people will say don't judge , these are the same people that refuse to hear the word of God .

I will stop judging you all now ! Amen

John 7:24

King James Version

24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

1 Corinthians 2:15

But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

One may only judge all things righteously if it be that the Holy Spirit is in him.

Jesus said not to judge in several places:

Luke 6 37

Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Romans 2:1 |

Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

Romans 14:13 |

Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

James 4:12 |

There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

Mary,

Verses 7 and 8 of Romans Chapter 5 is showing contrast. Verse 7 says: For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

Humanly speaking, would you die for me? You might say to me "You got to be kidding! Me die for you?" Or you might say "Sure I will. Just don't take me up on it!" Maybe someone would for a good person, a benefactor.

But look at the contrast in Verse 8. It says But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Can you imagine that?

Christ died for me, not while I was "getting my act together" or trying to be a "good person." He died while I was in a condition of being a sinner and His enemy!

Who dies for their enemies?

What does Romans ch 5 v 7 mean? Thanks

Saturn worship is literally the biggest deception on mankind in all of history and this line proves it.

How is the mind of an unsaved person described versus a mind after knowing right from wrong and being convicted?

Jesus taught Paul, Paul taught Peter.

Galatians 1:11-12 "But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, (Peter nor any other Disciple taught the Gospel to Paul)but by the revelation of Jesus Christ." Jesus told Paul what to Preach to the Gentiles. On the other hand, Paul taught the Gospel which he preached to the Gentiles to the 12 Apostles, including Peter. Galatians 2:1-2 "Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. 2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain." And it was at least 14 years after the resurrection. THERE YOU HAVE THE SCRIPTURE, NOT MY WORD BUT GOD'S WORD.

Well Charles,

We were conversing about mainly how you perceive that Paul preached a "different" Gospel or something extra that the other apostles didn't have. That Jesus "died" for our sins. In a previous post I stated how ( 1 Peter 2:24 has "Jesus bared our sins in his own body on the tree". Basically stating he "died" for our sins. Which the apostle Peter wrote this epistle first hand, at around the same time, to be fair, some may say earlier, than the Book of Acts. Showing that one book had this "teaching", from Peter, and the other didn't. So there is no way to say Peter or any of the original apostles of Christ did not teach this also. To state only Paul did.

Then you asked a question of what Gospel I was saved by.

Is this not what we were conversing about? My apologies if I am wrong.