Bible Discussion Replies PAGE 241

S. Spencer,

Of course, this is what we all have said in one way or another.

However, anyone who believes in Christ will imitate Him, and He obeyed the Father in all things. He kept all the commandments and did it from the heart and not only outwardly. That is what we should also do, obey God's commandments from the heart desiring to do His will and bring Him glory in bringing forth the fruit of the life in the Spirit.

It always surprises me that so many will argue against obeying God's commands because of being 'under grace'. Would any of you who advocate this viewpoint give themselves over to a life of sinful living without regard to God's revealed will in His commandments? I doubt it. Those of us who view that we should desire to obey the Decalogue and all of Christ's commandments are not negating grace in any way. We believe that one shows that they are regenerated and indwelt by the Holy Spirit by our obedience to God by the power of the Holy Spirit. We are freed from the condemnation of the Law, but not free to disobey God without concern or a pricking of our conscience. The Bible is clear that believers are being made to be like Jesus bit by bit through obedience. We have a new mindset that believes that God's revealed will is best for us to obey as wholeheartedly as we are able in this life as a result of being saved by the Lord. We never can be perfect like Jesus, and as James said, if we keep God's commandments and sin in one of them we are guilty of all of them. But this does not mean that it is futile to desire to do so and be led by the Spirit to obedience, empowered by grace to say no to ungodliness and yes to what is good and right.

Peter speaks of not having people come against us for doing what is wrong, but for doing what is right. Our witness to others is not helped when we live in clear disobedience to what God has revealed as morally right. But when others see our godly living, they will either praise the Lord, or grumble against us.

Thanks Richard.

Very well stated Brother!

God bless you and all you do for this site.

Amen David0921

Thanks for your reply.

Hebrews 8 nails it.

God bless.

Thanks Brother Chris.

Your rambling as always has blessed me.

God bless you and everything you do.

Thanks Oseas.

" whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all" James 2:10.

My point exactly.

When it comes to atonement for sin God requires perfection!

No one has ever done that keeping the Law.

That's why provided us a perfect Lamb.

God bless.

Greetings in Christ JESUS, S Spencer

It's hard to believe that "1) Israel keeps the Law far better than any nation ever has!!". Will be? Maybe Sabbath day, for " whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all - James 2:10.

Hi Richard,

Thanks for bringing up this discussion.

I have posted already on this topic, but I wanted to just speak to the "innocence" of young children and babies. Although no one is completely innocent of sin as David stated that he was sinful from conception. All are this way due to the sinful nature.

But as for young children, babies, and pre-born babies, they either may not have yet actively sinned or do not understand that what they did is sin against God, even though they know they did wrong ( they feel guilt), or they do not understand the fullness of the gravity of sin and judgment. In this sense, there is an innocence that is unlike older children and adults. These young people have not the mental capacity to understand what sin is. Also, they have not lived long enough to observe or participate in outright wickedness that is prevalent in society. Good parents shield their young children from such things. This innocence comes with a vulnerability to be abused, mistreated, and seriously harmed by wicked deeds of others who know better.

But in the matter of God ordering the slaying of all members of an ethnic group, young, adult, elderly; innocent, vulnerable, or culpable, we just cannot truly know God's reasons or purpose in commanding this, unless the text right out states why.

And also, so many people suffer and perish in wars, natural disasters, violence, illnesses and it is God who allows it. he is in charge of our lives from the first moment of conception to our last heartbeat. Our lives are in His hands and it decides when we are conceived and when we die. We, as creatures are the possessions of the Creator. We cannot judge Him negatively in this matter because He has revealed to us that He is absolutely good, just, holy, and completely unable to do what is immoral.

His judgments are true and right. His will is perfectly good. His purposes are for His glory. His wisdom is above all other wisdom in lucidity, expansiveness, and reasonableness.

Chris, 'page 2 & 3;

"you don't know why I would bring up this matter, as it pertains to our discussion. When in Truth, it reaches to the very heart of it.

Going to the letter, in Hebrew or Greek etc; as you quoted & spoke from, comes from the traditions & teaching of man, the wisdom that's from below, earthy, which makes Mark 7:13, which sprang up in the Apostasy. Isa 55:8,9;

Whereas coming to the Spirit, our Teacher; The Word Rom 10:8; that comes Rom 10:17; within us, produces the fruit, the Word intended Isa 55;11; Isa 14:27;

Bringing this part of the conversation to a conclusion, by giving "the cause & effect of the learning from the letter, verses being taught by God Himself.

1Cor 2:10 which is freely & lavishly given unto us in Christ. Col 2:2,3; Proverbs 8:14;

You said; you don't subscribe to this type of application of sanctification ; citing verses with the word meaning; its plain to me that your faith is coming from books, & not our Teacher; who is Hebrews 12:2. Your trying to understand spiritual things by carnal means, Thus this faith you have is 2Timothy 3:7 Meaning; it will never bring one to the experiential knowledge of God; in Spirit & in Truth. Matt 11:27; For God is a Spirit & only by His Spirit is He manifested & known.

Jeremiah 31:33,34; New Covenant, he's prophesying, not that he partook of it, 1Peter 1:10; & yet he was cleansed & holy under the gospel of his dispensation 2 Peter 1:21; as many were Luke 1:5,6;

Again; what God requires of us, is to walk upright in the knowledge that He has given us.

Thank you for your kind apology, no offense taken, just a misunderstanding. Believe me, in this slow progressive work of sanctification, I've have had many misunderstanding & faltering, receiving His reproofs & admonishments, I've learnt Daniel 4:37; I love the way He gets to me. He always "hit the nail on the head" so to speak,& why? Daniel 2:22, Psalms 36:9;

you have experience Him in Spirit, Chris (in the car)

in Love & Truth

Frankie J

Further discussion on children and destruction in scriptures

God has no joy in the destruction of the wicked. ( Ezekiel 18:23; 33:11). So He also; by default would have none in the death of the innocent.

Continuing on the theme of such calls for death of everyone; we cannot ignore the child sacrifice that was so prevalent in the nations surrounding Israel. Thus; it is certainly plausable that these children would have died a far worse and more tortuous death if they had been allowed to live in that manner. It is also possible that God has chosen to save some who He knew otherwise would take up Pagan customs themselves and more innocent life should they be allowed to live to adulthood. Such postulations are hardly satisfactory or certainly not enjoyable as some sort of curiousity or mystery. These hard verses cannot always be ignored either; even if we cannot understand; we trust God has some plan or purpose for it; just has He does for famines; wars; disease; etc that take innocent lives every day.

We can gain some wisdom when we look at God's chastisements of Israel itself such as in Lamentations. Such evils were worse as described in that book for those who endured the famine; ate their own children; etc then dying in battle ( Lamentations 4:9).

Warnings of curses and horrible results are spelled out in Deuteronomy; and we need to see the progress in a society as it breaks down (just look around today). The Prophet Jeremiah known as the "weeping prophet" as well as others were in great anguish seeing visions of the destruction to come.

We also need to look at situations such as with Rahab. (Joshua chapter 2). Proper respect and fear of God along with proper action with God's people was able to procure favor in the coming invasion; for her and her entire immediate family. She also later was an important part of the descendants of Israel. This shows repentance and along with others in scripture; a decision to become one of God's people.

Thank you Bros. Dan, Giannis & GiGi for your responses. I will get to them in due course as I'm unable to at the moment because of other commitments. Blessings to all.

Chris,

Part 3.

Thank you for bearing with me in this lengthy post.

In verse 6, Paul sums his point up by stating that to live according to the sinful nature (carnality or fleshly) is death. Disobedience always kills. But, he says, that to be spiritually minded (living by the Spirit and the Spirit's law of life) is life and peace (with God and personally at peace).

So what Paul is contrasting in these verses is not the holy Law of God and the life of the Spirit. He is contrasting the law that is at work in us ( Romans 7:7-13 identifies sin as the culprit, not the Holy Law.) "The Law is "spiritual" "hoy, and "just" and "good

(Verse 7:12;14) Paul identifies the law of sin and death as what he speaks of in Rom. 7:22-23, not as the Law of God, but as another law.

So, Chris, I do not think in any way that Paul was speaking of the holy Law of God as being the law of sin and death because he identifies the law as good that he delights in in verse 7:22 and the law of sin and death as "another law" in verse 23.

To sum up:

The holy Law of God is good, just and holy and desirable for regenerated people. However, it condemns those who break it.

The law of sin and death is another law that came into effect when the holy law is transgressed through our sinful nature (the flesh) This law brings in reality condemnation upon those who sin.

Therefore, sin all men have sinned and fall short of God's glory and righteous requirements for anyone to have relationship with Him, the law can never bring us into this relationship, being powerless to save us from our sins.

The law of the Spirit is the power to walk in Him in obedience, having been regenerated and saved from our sins through Jesus.

Believers will desire to live according to the will of God by the work of the Holy Spirit, and will, with the Spirit's help, resist the desires of the sinful nature.

We who believe will, like Paul, love God's law.

Chris,

Pt. 2

But, as Paul says in verse 3, God sent His Son, Jesus Christ, into the world, by creating a human body for Him and giving Him a human nature like every other human, but without the sinful nature. Jesus was sent specifically for the sinfulness of humans. His coming was to condemn sin in the flesh of all humans in His own sinless body because He alone was righteous and had the standing and power to and the holiness to take the judgment of humanity's sin upon Himself on the cross, satisfying the condemnation our sin brought through His sacrifice and holy blood. This work of Christ does what the Holy Law could never do, it saves us from the condemnation of our sins forever. His work exchanged our sinfulness for HIs righteousness so that we can have right standing before the Father. Being God and man, Jesus was the perfect Savior, completely untainted from personal sin, but, due to His divinity, He could judge sin and remove it from us without Himself being forever tainted by it. He overcame it by taking upon Himself to destroy it and its effects. He had the power and authority as God to do this.

Paul goes on in verse 4 to say that Jesus did this so that the righteousness of the law will be fulfilled in us both by receiving His righteousness before the Father, but also that we will walk in a newness of life in the Spirit because we can now walk after the things of the Spirit, (which would be things that the Decalogue has instructed us to live by as well as the additional commandments laid out for us by our Lord.)

Lastly, in verse 5, Paul contrasts the sinful life of the unregenerated to the renewed and godly life of the life of the Spirit. Those who are regenerated will have their minds set on what the Holy Spirit wills, which is always righteous, and will resist the sinful nature (the flesh) in this new life in Christ.

See part 3.

Hello Chris,

This is an interesting thread that has taken many turns already. I just want to speak to what Paul refers to as the "law of sin and death" in Romans 8:2. In reading verses 1-5 I see that Paul is speaking of several things.

He is speaking of the freeing of us by the Holy Spirit from the condemnation that we acquire from sinning against the Holy Law of God. It does not say that we are freed from the Holy Law, but of the condemnation it pronounces upon us when we sin.

He speaks of the Holy Spirit in us causes us to walk according to the will of the Spirit and to not walk according to the sinful nature. (which he calls "the flesh"). So when we yield to the work of the Holy Spirit we are empowered to do what God wills, which would be doing what God has determined to be pure and moral (as the 10 commandments teach us what this is).

Paul goes on to say that the Holy Sprit teaches us the law that gives life (forgiveness, no condemnation, grace, eternal life, in and through Christ Jesus). This new life frees us from the law of sin and death. I understand the law of sin and death to be the aspect of God's holy judgment that always brings death to all who sin rather than speaking of the holy Law of God which shows us God's moral will.

Then in verse 3 he says that what the law could not do, (the holy commands of God could not make us righteous because we will break them whenever we sin, which brings the judgement of sin and death to all who sin). Our sinful nature makes it so that we cannot be perfectly righteous perfectly and always doing what is right according to God's will and law. The Law of God cannot make us righteous nor clear us of our sin, nor remove the condemnation for our sinning against it. It can only bring condemnation upon every person because none of us keep it wholly and perfectly all the time. We cannot do this. And the Law cannot save us.

see Part 2

Sorry, I meant "flow," not "float".

Pt 2, Chris

A few weeks ago I was going through Matthew 5,6 where Jesus gives some commandements to His disciples. Then He tells them not to worry about their needs because God will provide for them. And in verse 6:33 He says, "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you". You see brother seeking to obey God's com/nts is actually seeking His righteouness and His Kingdom. God righteouness is not only Jesus' sacrifice but a part of it is our strive to obey His Law.

There are 2 opposite theories in Christianity. The first one, at the one extreme end, says that we need to do a whole load of works to please God and get saved. The other extreme, I think it is called hypergrace (hyper is grk fot the Latin super), that is a supergrace which surrounds christians, so say I can sit on my couch at home and watch an erotic movie and still the grace of God floats around me. Which one is right? None.

Where is the truth? In between. There is a part that a man does and a part that God does. Our part is to strive to live righteously and God's part is to provide for me Jesus' Blood when I fail in my struggle to accomplish His Law. This is how God's righteouness is fulfilled. No result can be obtained if any of those parts is missing. We can do nothing without God's grace and God can do nothing if we don't repent for our sins IN OUR STRIVE TO LIVE RIGHTEOUSLY. This is the narrow road

I wii not tire you too much. What are God's com/nts? I mean, are they what God calls righteous, what he likes, wishes, whar are they really? They are what He would do in such cases. Primarily the com/nts represent God's character. What God asks us to do is what He would do under the same circumstances. Love your enemy...because your Father in Heaven loves them...to become His children. The importance of God's commandements and us knowing & obeying them is of unspeakable importance.

If I misunderstood your post I am very sorry, forget my post

GBU

Pt 1

Hi Chris

I would like to get in into that conversation.

You have written very good comments so far on that topic (God's commandements), but i do have an objection about a statement you have done, which is "I find it incredible why believers cannot find their joy & confidence in abiding by the Word & Ministry of the Spirit alone, rather finding a little more comfort in having a set of rules to follow". If the set of rules you were referring to is things like Sabbath then we are in agreement. But if you mean in general God's commandements I am on the opposite site.

Let's see the 2 Covenants. The Old one is a shadow for the New one, which means that animal sacrifices worked as a figure for Jesus' sacrifice. So as far as the way of justification of people is concerned those two Covenants are completely different. But as far as the Moral Law that accompanies both Covenants is concerned the New one is, let's use a modern word, an upgrade of the Old one. Because there are moral laws that accompany the New Covenant as well the Old one.

But let's go through another way.

What does it mean that we are justified by God. It means that in front of God's eyes we are considered as righteous people.

How is that done? It is done through Jesus' sacrifice.

When are we justified by God? When we repent and ask for forgiveness through Jesus' Blood.

Repent for what? For the sins we have done (and still doing).

What is sin, what defines what sin is? God's Law, God's commandements.

So obeying God's commandements is of a huge importance to Christians. Breaking those com/ments is sin.There is a moral law in New Testament, God's commandements, which are of an extremely high importance, there are not to be given a secondary place in our doctrines. And how do we know those com/ments? Because we read them in the Bible. I don't think there is anybody who claims that the Spirit of God teaches them personally (like it was done to apostle Paul), so they don't need to read the Bible.

you are right

Amen Oseas...Greeting to you also in the name of Jesus, my brother and thank you kindly....Smiley face .

Mr. Priday,

In your response and in another comment, I noticed you have used the term "Age of Grace". I don't find that term used anywhere in the Bible.

Forgive me If I am drawing a wrong conclusion. But that term would seem to imply that there are other ages in history, which are not the "age of grace". Are you suggesting that the nature of salvation changes throughout history. And that there are times where God is saving by grace alone and other times, where he is saving by something other than grace alone. Please explain.

I believe that the Bible teaches there is one and only one salvation. And that is a salvation of grace alone, apart from any Works whatsoever that we would do. That is the salvation of Abel, of Enoch, of Noah, and his family, of Abraham, of David, of everyone in The Old Testament that became saved, and everyone in the New Testament that becomes saved, like Paul, like Luke, like Peter, like you and me if we are true believers. There is no difference throughout the history of the World in the nature of God's salvation and what it means to be "saved".

It is true that God gives us additional information about the nature of salvation in different parts of the Bible. And God does use different means to send forth the true gospel throughout history. But there is only one true gospel, and that gospel has existed throughout time, and is the same gospel spoken of in Genesis and Revelation and everywhere in between.

So again, perhaps you could explain what you mean by the "Age of Grace".

Thank you.

Thanks Chris,

I feel we are much closer in agreement than we may think. I'm sure you'll agree we have always needed God's laws to live peaceably, and safely. This has not changed throughout the ages. Without Laws, societies break down and self destruct. Over the centuries, many societies laws have been based to some degree on God's 10 Commandments.

It is true that in the OT man had God's Commandments/Laws and could not refrain from sin on their own, which resulted in Death. Thanks to Jesus and the Cross, we are under God's New Covenant, and per the scripture we have those same laws written in our bodies and minds. What is different now is we have the Holy Spirit to help us refrain from sin in a New Way that was not available before Jesus. Same Laws - New way to follow the same commands - which will result in Life Now - instead of Death previously. And we are not accomplishing this on our own. and it is only by the Holy Spirit in us that can save us from Death. Amen

John 14:26

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Let me put it another way, would the Holy Spirit guide us - to not follow God's 10 Commandments? I don't think so, and I think we should be able to agree that if we are being led by God's Holy Spirit we will be motivated to follow God's 10 Commandments. Chris, I would like you to answer one question. Please tell me what Commandments(s) from God's 10 Commandments we are not required to follow now under the New Covenant? And why.

GBU

Greetings in Christ JESUS, Alex

Good question: Why wd this woman keep the commandments when she has the testimony of Jesus.

First, the testimony of JESUS is the Spirit of prophecy. She is clothed with the Sun, the Greater Light , sent in the fourth Day or around 4000 years after Adam, that is JESUS. JESUS said:My Father worketh hitherto, and I work- John 5:17KJV. I and my Father are One- John 10:30. Under her feet the Lesser light, the Holy Spirit, also sent in the fourth Day, gives her sustention / sustenance, furthermore, the woman is already crowned under the doctrine of the twelve Apostles chosen by our Lord JESUS.

Yes, the dragon (the man of sin, son of perdition, the Beast of the earth- Revelation 13:11 combined with 2Thes. 2) was (will be) wroth/wrath with the woman, he will persecute the woman which brought forth the MAN child -the ancient of days - the Lesser Light - and to the woman is given two wings of a great eagle -the OT and the NT -, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished - nourished by the OT and NT, the commandments and testimony of JESUS -, for a time, and times, and half a time (42 months), from the face of the serpent- Revelation 12:14KJV.

And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth(earth here is the clay- Isaiah 64:8, the dry land) helped the woman(will be 144K???), and the earth(Jewish believers) opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon (a strong DELUSION that will be sent by GOD-2Thes.2:11-12 combined with Revelation 13:11-18) cast out of his mouth.

Let us get ready, it is midnight, the bridegroom comes; let us go out to meet Him, all of us need to arise and trimmed our lamps. But wait, only lamp is not enough to walk now, it's necessary / essential to have oil, otherwise, the lamp will go out, but at midnight? in full darkness and nocturnal terrors?

Be careful

This new covenant is NOT like the old covenant..... Jeremiah 31:34.....I will make a new covenant NOT ACCORDING to the old covenant....With the house of Israel and Judah......But this New Covenant was addressed to the Gentiles also.....If ya be in Christ Jesus then are you ABRAHAMS SEED....Gal.3:29.....And heirs according to the Promise....That PROMISE of multiplication of Christ seed.....The field being the world.....God so loved the world.....Thus all inclusive of all sinners.....If i be lifted up ( the blood of the new covenant) i will draw all men unto me.....But this New Covenant is dependent on a heavenly birth.....A Child has to be born in us which is the H.G. that Child of Promise....Thats y Jeremiah saw all men in travail n birth pains J 30:6

......There was a Child involved in the O.C which was Isaac whom they refered to as the Child of Promise.....But under this new Covenant the Child is a heavenly Child the H.G.....Which is the Child of Promise.....1 Cor.15:49.....As we have borne the image of the earthly we must also bear the image of the heavenly which is the H.G. the child of Promise.....Whosoever receiveth one such Child in my name receiveth me....Thus the need for the sower and his precious seed to be sown in our hearts.....Initiating a heavenly Birth....Thats y he has to know us.....That his good seed the living word might be sown in our hearts resulting in a spritual pregnancy which is FAITH ....The substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen.....Which is the Child of Promise.....The H.G. as that which is born of the spirit is spirit the H.G.....Our new heart and new spirit that new Creature.... Rev. 12 :10...Plz note the Kingdom nor any Salvation comes till the woman gives birth.....Our new birth our good fruit ....Unless you receive the Kingdom as a lil Child you will in no wise enter there in.....Under the O.C. there was a nation of Israel and under the N.C. Comes another Israel they are HEAVENLY..The H.G. AN Israel of God..GB

Page 2.

Even in Jeremiah 31:33,34, God hasn't cleansed them yet & "remembered their sin no more". That is still future Israel turns to the Lord & the sins of the past are indeed forgiven & forgotten, as He graciously deals with us today.

For the greater part of your pages 2 & 3, I'm unsure why you presented that with what we're discussing, so unsure how to deal with it. Was it primarily about considering what the original languages & their meanings/applications are to the Scriptures? That is, going deep into the Word or hearing from the Spirit?

And yes, Romans 14:23 is a great definition of what sin is, which of course would need examination to learn how the working of one's faith in relation to sin brings about either victory or defeat. And I would add, it is both the working of faith & of the Spirit that the believer engages with when confronted with sin; without the Spirit's Power defeat is certain. GBU

Page 1.

Thank you Frankie J. You wrote: "I have not stated; as you're implying the perfecting of the body, physically, it still remains under

the penalty of sin consequences." Actually, I always go back to the original post or question, i.e. "Can we reach a state of perfection in our lifes on earth , where we actually sin no more?"

I apologize, I understood that your original question did imply (or at least seeking) answers to that question of reaching perfection in our earthly lives. And from our discussions, I gathered that you did in fact believe that it is possible to do so; so sensed that you might be at or near that blessed state. Whereas the basis of these discussions between us is that my belief is that we will never reach that state in this life: our spirits might be renewed & made pure, but we still live in corrupt flesh & thus sin ever waits to manifest itself & it does so.

Yet, your statement continued: "Yet (the body?) can be pure & holy, being animated by the new birth & renewing of the mind by His Spirit; John 3:3-6; 1Thess 5:23,24; "wholly", not of position only, but possession." This is the point of our difference. As you wrote: "wholly, not of position only, but possession". Yes, we are 'sanctified wholly', but I'm afraid that what it boils down to is that your understanding of sanctification or wherever 'perfection, complete', etc. are used, you take it as being perfectly pure/clean now. And I think you will remember from my previous comment, that I don't subscribe to this type of application; even citing examples from 1 John 4:17 & Romans 12:1. So I think we need to leave that matter there, as we simply cannot reconcile those (& other) verses to what we believe.

What does the Word of GOD say? The Word is GOD, self-executing. The Law and the Prophets lasted until John the Baptist, the angel of the Lord, and the voice GOD sent to cry in the wilderness(cry in Israel, the dry land) around 2000 years ago.

And now, in the New Testament, Paul Apostle wrote to the former true Church of Rome, where there many Jewish people believers, saying unto them:

In short, the epistle of Paul Apostle to the Romans, says:

2:12-16

12 For as many as have sinned without Law(the Gentiles) shall also PERISH without Law: and as many as have sinned in the Law(the Jews) shall be JUDGED by the Law;

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the Law, do by nature the things contained in the Law, these, having not the Law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;

16 In the Day(the LORD's Day (the seventh and last Day, or seventh and last millennium, the current millennium)- when GOD shall Judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

The Word is GOD, self-executing. The last GOD's Day - the seventh - arrived.

Thank you brother S. Spencer for that good pertinent word. This is indeed "where the cross comes in" - the Old Covenant with its Laws are out, as the Lord of Heaven ushers in the New ( Hebrews 8:13). And by bringing in the New, His Gift of the Spirit interprets the whole Law of God to our hearts (way beyond what was once delivered to Israel). Israel had no power to keep the Law & obey God. God had spoken directly to them, led them, kept them, & blessed them beyond imagination. But they despised the Holy One & the Law that served to bring them to brokenness, repentance & looking for a Redeemer, instead hardened their hearts towards God & ultimately to His Son.

But to those who "received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name"; and "God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father." How God would have longed to hear His Name being passionately called upon by Israel, His very own! But to His elect, & the redeemed of the LORD, that is our constant cry & continual appeal, to a loving merciful Father Who has laid no burden upon us, but that through faith we should be saved & given power to trust His Word & obey Him. Such is the glory of the New Covenant with His Laws written in our hearts, knowing clearly what the Lord expects of us. Sorry for the rambling - I still remain amazed as to what was achieved at the Cross for us & all that we receive from Heaven ( Ephesians 1). How much more for the Jew, those whose eyes of understanding are opened & the yearning of their hearts now fully realized in Christ their Savior. Thank you for adding this to our present thoughts on this subject.

Thank you for your responses to those Scriptures, Bro. Dan. I guess we will have to leave off interpreting those Scriptures, indeed all that speak of the Law, since we'll never come to agreement of which Law, its timing & purposes, that is being referred to.

But just back to Romans 8:1-4; what do you think Paul meant when he wrote that he was "made me free from the law of sin and death?' 'Free', I understand to mean, 'set at liberty, released'. The Greek, implies, 'set free from another's control'. Clearly, "the law of sin and death" applies to the Ten Commandments & its associated regulations & punishments. Paul wrote that he had been freed from its control & deathly grip (for that was its purpose), because he was now "in Christ Jesus" (v1). And he further wrote, that "the law of the Spirit of (this) life in Christ Jesus", was the very law that freed him, giving him a new law to abide by in his new life in Jesus. There was nothing wrong with the origin, veracity & great value of the old Law, it's just that it kept men (Israel) bound to it with no hope of release - only showing them the 'sinfulness of their sin' ( Romans 7:13).

And to those, like Paul, who by the help of the Spirit came to understand this Truth, found that there was actually a release from law's bondage which left men corrupt & hell-bound; & the release was found only in Christ Jesus who took that Law, perfectly fulfilling it in His Life right up to the Cross, & abrogating it forever. If it wasn't canceled, Christ's death would be worthless & His coming in vain. If we resort to that which only brought death, even to syncretize it with that which now gives life & liberty, what a horrible mess we have. I find it incredible why believers cannot find their joy & confidence in abiding by the Word & Ministry of the Spirit alone, rather finding a little more comfort in having a set of rules to follow. The Spirit deals with each one of us in a special way, which no set of rules ever could. Blessings.

Good evening.

I haven't been able to get away to participate by reading the bulk of the posts and replies on the 10 commandment topic.

I would like to mention a misunderstanding in the communication between the several views on this topic.

There's a difference in the 10 commandments being Holy and being justified by keeping them.

We say Israel failed to be a witness but is that totally accurate?

How did they fail? By not keeping the law?

Before anyone answer that I would like for us to consider a few things.

1) Israel keeps the Law far better than any nation ever has!!

2) The law was given to Israel. Romans 9:4. So they had a ministry to minister to the Whole world as "fleshly" Children of an active, living, Holy God.

This ministry was called ministration of death..

2 Corinthians 3:6-9.

They were examples for us and this is written to us.

They successfully showed the world what Paul stated in Romans 7:5-14.

The world is unable to be Justified by the Law.

3) To say Israel failed for not keeping the law is not exactly correct.

They failed by thinking they were justified by the law.( Not just the 10 commandments ) after all there were articles for certain sins.

They failed because they stumbled at that stumblingstone!

That's where they failed!!

Romans 9:31-33.

They all didn't fail, there was a remnant according to the election of grace and still is.

Romans 11:4-8.

vs 5) Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant (ACCORDING TO THE ELECTION OF GRACE!)

This election is not determined by works.

In other words works wasn't elected as God's way to justify his people.

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;

Yes the law is Holy and we all fail to be Justified by it, so we were all dead in trespasses and sins.

This is where the cross comes in.

Ephesians 2:1-5.

God bless.

Hello Richard,

This subject of God ordering all inhabitants of the people the Israelites were to conquer to be killed leads us to admit that we do not know all of the counsel of God in such matters and we are to believe that He is righteous in all of His ways. Even in such situations as this treatment of children we can believe that God has a better future for these young ones after death, especially in the resurrection. These children were in a sense, martyred due to the gross wickedness of their parents. It is not on the Israelites as the ones doing the killing, since God ordered it be so. But it is on the parents who, as Romans 1 states, knew of God and HIs great power and ability to create all things, but instead of worshipping Him rightly, they exchanged the truth of who God is for the deceptions of Satan that lured them into worshipping idols either they thought up, saw in nature, or were demons who manifested to them as beings they thought worthy of worship.

They surely knew of the ancient patriarch Noah who worshipped God rightly and Shem, and others who came from that very region who were their ancestors. Most likely the peoples of the area kept an oral and at times written accounts of these patriarchs that were kept as part of their history from generation to generation, just like the Israelites did. But the peoples corrupted this history, incorporating more fanciful stories and heroes that were not true to history.

But, when we come upon such disturbing accounts in the Scriptures of God ordering the slaying of children, we must admit that God is infinitely more wise and just than we ever could be. Since He is the one who can raise the dead, He knew that these children would be raised on the last day. We can have hope that children are covered by the blood of Jesus, despite their sinful state from conception and will be glorified with all of us in the last day. Jesus said to let the children come unot Him for such is the kingdom of heaven.

Thanks, brother Spencer,

Right back at you and all the dads here!