Bible Discussion Replies PAGE 249

heres the thing right 2esdras 13:45 says it took over a year and a half assyrya to west africa dont seem like it would take them a year and a half ,assyria to america do tho .

2 of 2

..... Eph 6:12; 2 Cor 10:3,4,5; Matt 15:18; Matt 12:34 both seeds or kingdoms are within.

Paul gives us an insight of his growth in grace in 1Cor 9:27; he considers himself capable to falling, he kept his body under, then in Rom 8:35-39; he had reach a level of the stature an fullness of Christ that nothing could separate Him from the love of Christ Jesus his Lord. Sin separates, as Eden experience tell us & our own experiences bares witness to us.

Chris; you've accurately describe in your own experience His Grace/Light spiritual appearance within your heart, following Him in this manner will Titus 2: 14; Eze 36:25; the washing of the water of the Word; the incorruptible Seed; becoming holy, blameless unreproachable in His sight, that we may experience 2 Cor 6:16; Gal 2:20; Luke 6:40; Jn 17: 21-24

The veil of the flesh is taken away by Christ, that the intimacy, oneness with Him in Spirit may be known & felt in our hearts here on earth.

Hope this stimulates your query;

in love & truth

Franke J

1 of 2

Hi Chris

I welcome your interest in my question;

There's 2 states that we may attain in this life, 1st, is to be brought back to the innocents of Eden before the fall, where we're yet capable of falling, if were not steadfastly abiding in Him. Jn 15:5; 1Jn 3:6; the fruit mention here is that of His Spirit, the Divine Nature, & good works naturally follows.

2nd state is to be brought into the state in Christ, who never fell, though He was tempted, being tempted is not a sin. This life is explained in Rom 6:2-8; Eph 2:6; Jn 17:21-24; Luke 6:40; the high calling of God in Christ Jesus, to be experience here & now.

Paul in Gal 1:3; 2 Cor 1:2 was speaking from the Presence of God, He was phyically on earth, but His consciousness was in His Presence, Eph 6:20

This is impossibility as long as we remain sinners.

As one reads God's words; 1Jn 3:3-5, 9,10; Col 1:22; Holy Spirit creates a desire, an expectation to actually experience what the writers of the Scriptures possessed & lived. This standard of perfection/holiness that Jesus commands in Matt 5:48; is declared as the same of the Father. He as a loving Father has provided the Way & the Means to attain it & that through His Son, His Spirit of Grace / Light

At my present measure, I'm in the 1st state; What God requires of us all is to walk according to the Truth that we know, & as we abide in Him through the 1 Pet 1:7-9; we grow in Grace & more Light is given unto us; Pro 4:18 & this perfection can be added too 2 Cor 4:6,7; Salvation is not instant, Heb 5:9; 9:28; Rom 10:10; the words "unto salvation"; denotes a progressive work of sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience, & there's a mighty work of the Spirit to be wrought in cleansing out the temple of all the foul guest that has inhabit us in the times of our alienation....

Adam,

I want to be very clear regarding our works.

If we believe that God saves us BECAUSE we have in some way been obedient to the Law of God, i.e. good works. That is a gospel of Grace plus Works. That is not the True Gospel of the Bible.

The passages you reference in James and others are proof that if God has indeed saved us there will be evidence in our life that this is so by our increasing obedience to the Law of God because we now have a resurrected soul that desires this and is no longer in rebellion against God. But our resurrected soul, which cannot initiate sin, still resides in a body that lusts after sin and so, until God completes our salvation at the Last Day by giving us our resurrected spiritual body, we will not obey God's Law perfectly, and can indeed even fall into grievous sin, like David did, as we take our eyes off Christ. But we see David's reaction to this in Psalm 51.

The bottom line is that if God has saved us, if we have become a "new creature in Christ", we will find in our life an Ernest Ongoing desire to be obedient to God. This will be the RESULT of our salvation but not the CAUSE. This is why we are commanded to "crucify the flesh and its desires". It is only God's Mercy if He has saved us because we do not deserve that salvation in any way.

If we do not see this attitude and repentance from sin in our life it may be that we have not become saved. As God warns us to "examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith".

But as long as we have the breath of life or until Christ returns at the Last Day, we may still cry out to God for His Mercy, as did the Ninevites, that God might save us.

"A broken and contrite heart I will not despise".

Our salvation is 100% the work of Christ, God Himself. Our works cannot and do not contribute to our salvation in any way.

Yes , satan is a seducer , he tells lies and tells us what we want to hear , he uses smooth words and wants us to love and worship him and not God . This about sums up human arrogance and pride I think , especially the scientific community . Many scientists do actually believe that there must be a creator but most seek to out do God and prove themselves superior to Him . This is just my thoughts on the matter , we will know all things for sure one day . Until then may we all walk in love and learn from each other :) .

When you say that he is satan himself , what form will be take ? If he looks like some horrific demon with horns and a pointy tail then I can't imagine anyone wanting to be on his side ! He's a seducer , he tells lies , he tells humans what they want to hear , he wants the glory due only to God . My guess is that he will take a man's heart just like he did to Judas and even to Peter briefly . He will look like one of us and present himself as some kind of saviour , he will have ' created ' something , something to do with life , health etc , something that will fool the unbelievers into thinking that God definately doesn't exist . An open vision of a monster isn't going to attract many followers , even atheists and idolaters wouldn't follow a monster . He's a wolf in sheep's clothing don't forget , he will invent something that gives him great glory and disproves ( or so he will think ) the existence of God . We shall all find out eventually if we are still alive . Thank you for your posts David , I always enjoy them , you are insightful and polite :) .

He's much better this morning :) thanks .

But that would mean that those sinners in hell are in some form or other still alive ? How can they live forever when eternal life is the gift of God to those who believe in His Son ? The wages of sin is death , so surely that means that those who die in their sin are dead , not alive and on some level conscious in a place of torture . That's a contradiction that I can't come to terms with . We will all know all things eventually S Spenser and just because some of us disagree on some points doesn't mean that we can't all still learn something from each other , at least I hope that's the case :) . Blessings to you .

Yes , I agree with you . Have you noticed though that unbelievers are never 'asleep ' they are always dead in their sins , this sleep seems to only ever be applied to the faithful .

I now understand Adam as to what you're seeking. I equated Biblical statements about one's salvation the same as if one stated specifically that salvation was their present possession. But if you require other Scriptures, including the Luke 19:9 you gave, as well as Luke 23:42,43, we could include Acts 16:30-34 (they rejoiced, not because that salvation would be in the future, but by believing they would be saved now). Also, Acts 10:44-48 (the Holy Spirit was poured out on the Gentiles, not just for the Jews; & they spoke in other tongues & were water baptized). Though we don't hear these people (the jailer & Cornelius) saying the words that you require, yet Luke records what he observed, that a transformation had taken place.

As to the "dozens of verses supporting a future salvation", one could examine those verses you gave & find that there is a differing understanding whether those verses speak of a future salvation or of victoriously living out one's present salvation & of eternal rewards.

So, we come back to the whole understanding of salvation by faith, the Work of the Holy Spirit in a believer's life, & living a life presently but not knowing whether God will or will not bring about a salvation at Judgement time. These points would certainly take us away from the point you're raising, but I believe they are necessary so as to understand what takes place when a person repents, believes, & gets baptized by the Spirit. Does the Spirit really even baptise him? Does the Spirit leave & enter him at will? What place does Holy Spirit Power hold in a believer's life? Can we even call him a believer - maybe just a follower of Christ awaiting/hoping for approval on that future day of salvation? These are some of the questions that disturb me if I'm not an assured believer & accepted by God on the merits of His Son's Sacrifice - an adopted child of God now. The question then is: am I saved right now or not till later - maybe?

Titus 3: 5

Please read titus 3: 1-11

I pray God's peace be upon you.

Love you all

JESUS said to the Jews: John 5:43-47KJV:

43 - I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if ANOTHER(AN IMPOSTER - Who's is him?) shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Paul apostle prophesied about that IMPOSTOR, saying - 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 and 9 :

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, (See Revelation 13:11-14)

John 1:11KJV - JESUS came unto His own, and His own received Him not.

Philippians 2:6 - 6 Who, being in the form of GOD, thought it not robbery to be equal with GOD:

May our Lord GOD bless and keep us, and give us His protection

Amen

Hi Brother S Spencer,

Some of those questions may be answered in God's Word.

The purpose of my original question posted is to collect verses and I still only have 1 supporting salvation now which is the one I found. Of the verses posted I don't see any saying we're saved immediately on earth before judgment. Some cited being born again and being a new creature which are great verses but being transformed is not salvation.

Simply evaluating this on a Biblical support basis there are far more verses supporting future salvation instead of the present one people commonly cite. I believe I listed 7 to 1 before and I found more that support future too, so it might be 10 to 1.

So if there are no other verses supporting this why does a majority of believers believe in something so hardly supported by the Bible? Could it originate from cultural factors? Funerals for example- often people try to comfort others by saying they're in heaven right now despite Daniel 12:2, Job 14:12, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians 15:18-20, Matthew 9:24.

Just because there are questions does the questions themselves do not invalidate the truth of God's Word. God bless.

It sounds like you're conflating being born again with salvation. Does the Bible say these occur at the exact same time? If so, please share those verses.

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." John 14:15 KJV

Jesus said this. Jesus emphasized obedience and keeping His commandments. Those who are so opposed to obeying Jesus should probably be afraid of the upcoming judgment, because someone who doesn't obey Jesus might not be a Jesus follower.

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 7:21 KJV

How can anyone believe the Bible, read this Bible verse and then believe obeying God is bad?

"But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him." Luke 12:5 KJV

Acts 4:11-12KJV reveal there is none other NAME under heaven EXCEPT JESUS whereby we must be saved :

11 JESUS is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other NAME (except JESUS-the Word made flesh-the Word is GOD) under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

JESUS explained : Matthew 11:27KJV - ... No man knoweth the Son, but the Father; NEITHER KNOWETH any MAN the FATHER, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him. (As said John the Baptist, angel of the Lord : "No man hath seen GOD at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the BOSOM of the Father, He hath declared Him (made Him known) . John 1:18KJV

Hallelujaaa!!!

JESUS' own testimony about Himself is wonderful, and reveals to us in depth the mystery of His existence here in the greatness of the Universe created by GOD, the Word, GOD the Father, full of heavenly bodies, and here on Earth, specifically, He populated the planet with living beings, and sat in the circle of the Earth, as is written in Isaiah 40:21-22KJV:

21 Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?

22 It is GOD that sitteth upon the circle of the Earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; ...

That said, we must remember what JESUS said from His own existence: - John 17:4-5KJV: as follow:

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. ( John 1:3, and 5:17, and Hebrews 1:1-2KJV testify about this that JESUS said. Take a look.)

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the WORLD was. (John the Baptist, the angel of the LORD, testified about this, saying: John 1:18KJV- 18 No man hath seen GOD at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him.)

Paul testified, saying: Colossians 1:14-16KJV:

14 In JESUS we have redemption through His blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the INVISIBLE GOD -the Word- the Word is GOD- , the firstborn of every creature (the Word made flesh):

16 For by Him -by JESUS- were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him: ( John 1:3, and 5:17, and Hebrews 1:1-2 confirm)

David0921

The antichrist is a man. He is called (that man of sin) and (son of perdition) in ( 2 Thess. 2:3).

He is called (the beast) in ( Rev 13:1-5) v2 and v4 clearly tells us the dragon gave power to (the beast). They are not the same.

In ( Rev. 19:20) (The beast) and the false prophet are cast Alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

In ( Rev. 20:1-3) Satan is bound for a thousand years. (The beast was just cast into a lake of fire).

In ( Rev. 20:10) The devil is cast into the lake of fire and brimstone ((where (the beast) and the false prophet are)).

They are not the same.

Satan will possess him just like he did Judas Iscariot in ( Luke. 22:3) and in ( John. 13:27) as the 1st son of perdition ( John. 17:12) The only other time the words "son of perdition" is in the Bible is ( 2 Thess. 2:3)

"The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done, is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun" ( Ecclesiastes. 1:9)

If the 1st son of perdition (Judas Iscariot) was possessed by Satan. then the 2nd son of perdition in ( 2 Thess. 2:3) who exalteth himself above all that is called God, and sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God ( 2 Thess. 2:4) will also be possessed by Satan.

Truth matters.

Hi Ronald.

Concerning part 1 of your reply.

Rome destroyed the city.

The prince that shall come will rise out of the Romans empire. This empire was never overthrown.

I showed the connection between ch 2 and ch 7 and 9. on into Revelation.

In most of these passages they use the exact same terms and description.

You said you see of Matt. 23:37-38 is a consummation of Dan. 9:27.

But in Matthew 24:14-15 Jesus place Daniel 9:27 towards the end times!

( And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Concerning Daniel 11:31. That was Antiochus Epiphanes, this happened around 170 BC,

However, Jesus points this to a end time event.

Ronald if you will, refresh my memory of your view on the end times.

Where and when is the Millennial Kingdom?

Are we in it or is it future?

If future, can you give me your view chronologically?

This will help me understand where you are coming from.

God bless.

Adam,

I would add one other thing.

The process of becoming Born Again is absolutely an instantaneous process of which God is entirely in control. It is a true miracle as God replaces or changes (we can't understand the mechanics) our spiritual dead soul (i.e. our stony heart) with a new resurrected soul. (Read Ezekiel 36:26,27). This can occur even before we are born (John the Baptist) or in the last moments of our life (thief on the cross) or any time in between, but always on God's time table, not ours.

When we do become Born Again there will very quickly be a change in our personality, in that our new Resurrected Soul is going to have a real problem with our sin infected body that still lusts after sin. And we will find in our life a growing desire to know and do God's will and turn away from sin. This is called Growing in Grace.

This is guaranteed to occur with every one of God's elect at some point in their life.

Read the account of the salvation of the Ninevites in Jonah where God saved 120,000 of them.

Jema:

Your comment sums up antichrist.

As David0921 said, there is only two kingdoms on earth, the Kingdom of God and the kingdom of Satan.

The Kingdom of God of God is the Spirit of TRUTH, LIFE and LIGHT: CHRIST.

The opposite of Christ is antichrist.

The kingdom of Satan, the spirit of deception, death, and darkness.

It's not ONE antichrist in that kingdom, it begins with ALL men.

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist; wherefore you have heard that it should COME, and even NOW already is it in the world.

Most Christians confess that Christ came the first time in the flesh, FEW confess that he came the second time as the LIFE in the body of man.

Christ is still on the earth in the FLESH, in YOU his body; YOU, sinful flesh DIED on the cross, ONLY Christ arose to indwell YOU, his flesh.

John 16:8 And when he (the SPIRIT of Christ) is COME (Christ second coming as the Holy Ghost) HE (Christ) will reprove the WORLD OF SIN (unbelief).

Colossians 1:27 ..... this mystery .... Christ in you ...... a NEW CREATION ......

God bless you

I absolutely love Psalm 18! Such a powerful, promising, and encouraging Psalm!

Hi Jema.

Thanks for replying.

You said your faith is in Christ's sacrifice for your sin's. and that's where it should be.

Abram believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; Romans 4:20.

In Genesis 15:6-18 God made an unconditional promise to Abraham and performed it alone.

The ritual that constitutes the covenant where they cut these animals in half and walk between them together and if one renege on the covenant what happened to the animals would happen to that person.

God cannot lie so he was protecting Abraham when he entered the covenant alone.

Issac was Abraham's heir and Abraham knew that God keeps his promises and he knew that God would have to raise him from the dead to keep his promises.

God is Love but he is also a righteous judge. There is no where in scripture it says God saves us by his love. It says God so loved the world He provided us a savior and that savior was his Son. John 3:16.

The bible teaches us the wages of sin is death and the gift of God through Christ is eternal life. Romans 6:20-23.

The lost sinner's heart is energized by the ( Everlasting evil Spirit of this unrepentant world that is being held back by restraint of the Holyspirit.

I believe in hell and those who go there will be tormented.

Weeping and gnashing of teeth. Unquenchable fire.

There would have to be an awareness of pain and agony to Weep and Nash teeth.

And "Unquenchable fire" is unnecessary if it's unquenchable for no one.

Matthew 22:13

Psalm 112:10.

The bible describes hell as a place of torment.

You have to be awake to be tormented.

God bless.

Jema,

We love cats as well. They are one of

many great comforts and blessings that God in His Mercy provides to mankind.

Glad to hear that CJ is doing well.

Adam,

What you are suggesting is a gospel of Grace plus works. And God warns against that very strongly in Galatians and Romans and in many other passages. The True Gospel is a gospel of Grace Alone. Once God has "saved", us our good works are the RESULT of having become Born Again. Our good works are NEVER THE CAUSE nor the REASON for our salvation.

2 Cor 5:17 is speaking about the very nature of salvation and that conclusion is supported throughout the Bible.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Both of these passages are absolutely speaking about being Born Again in our Soul existence which is every bit a part of us as our Body. And that is what happens to every True Believer when God applies His salvation to their life.

Hi Adam.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. This speaks on a person present condition once he heareth Christ word, and believeth on him that sent him,

To be able to hear the word is a condition.

This is the blood tipped ear mentioned in scripture and also what's meant in John 10:27-28.

These verses along with many of what have been shared by others suggest that you are saved now not later.

However, just say if we are wrong, how do we stand in the day of judgement?

God is a righteous Judge and requires perfection. No one can present that!

If we're to be judged, what sins is he going to pardon?

How many times can we get away with sinning before we're condemned?

What role did the cross play in our salvation?

Why didn't he just stick with the old sacrificial systems if the blood of Christ couldn't take away sins?

These are valid questions if we are to be judged with the dead.

Jema,

The anti-Christ is Satan himself. Throughout history many have tried to identify the anti-Christ as some tyrant or other dastardly human being. But none of that fits when we understand that there are only two kingdoms that God is primarily concerned about. These two kingdoms are the Kingdom of Christ and the kingdom of Satan. And the warfare that exists between these two kingdoms is a Spiritual warfare. It is not national, political or social.

All of mankind throughout history ultimately belongs to one of those two kingdoms.

And much of the language that God uses in speaking about those two kingdoms is parabolic in nature.

We must remember:

Mark 4:9-13 And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them. And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

Mark 4:33,34 And with many such parables spake he the word unto them, as they were able to hear it. But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

Psalms 78:2 I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:

I must give God the glory and the thanks . I've just got a fourteen year old cat , five weeks ago . His name is CJ and he's been poorly for a few days and had become worse today . I prayed to God and asked Him to restore CJ 's health and happiness . He doesn't like to be handled and doesn't know me that we'll yet , I felt compelled to get hold of him and try to look at his mouth , so after a slight struggle I did just that . He had something , I don't know what , small hanging from inside his mouth , out of and over his bottom lip . I gently removed it and saw that it had probably been stuck in his bottom gum , causing his mouth to bleed and stopping him from eating . He's eating fine now , only chews on his right side of his mouth but at least he is eating and whatever it was I managed to get it out of his mouth . I must thank my God . Many people believe that God thinks less of animals than He does of people , I don't know if that's true or not , I think He may love them somewhat as He made them and made them so beautiful . I thank Him for taking pity upon me and my husband in our distress for our cat and for taking pity on CJ and helping me to help him . Thanks to God in Heaven for His tender mercies to us all .

David....

I perceive you have a desire & zeal for God, but not according to a true knowledge. Rom 10:2; I would like to discuss this futher with you if you like, but on one condition, every statement be back up with the Holy Scriptures & sound reasoning. Pro 30:6 This way, Truth alone may be exalted, for Truth is not a subject here, but a Person, personalified in Christ.

in love & truth

Frankie J

Can I ask a question of everyone ? I've heard a few people say that the anti-Christ will appear and proclaim himself that he is Christ , could this not mean that some one will present themselves as a saviour , not necessarily as Jesus Christ but as an inventor of something , or a scientist or a discoverer of a medical breakthrough ? Does anyone think that's possible ? There are so many evil things going on in science these days , people trying desperately to prove that we humans are the peak of evolution and that we can do anything that any God can do .

Thank you David. I read these 3 verses. None indicate that people are saved immediately on earth the moment they decide to follow Jesus.

The first reference 2 cor 5:17- new creature isn't the same as salvation. Being changed isn't salvation. It is part of the process of following Jesus. It also doesn't indicate the timing of the change to the new creature. It doesn't say when one responds to an altar call after hitting rock bottom from a violent alcoholic addiction, for example, that he person is immediately cured because he's now a new creature. If this was the case, I don't think Paul would have written so many letters to churches (believing Christians) trying to encourage them to stay on course, run the race, obey God, and avoid sin. This doesn't mean someone is trying to earn salvation as some like to attack good behavior while condoning bad behavior, but it means the action and good deeds is fruit of a genuine walk with Jesus. I think many verses support that this is a process and not instant. God bless.