Bible Discussion Replies PAGE 256

Does anyone have the prophecy of scripture to interpret who US is THAT the word refers to in GENESIS 1:26-- " God SAID" let us" --- anyone know the HOLY Spirit interpretation?

Anyone available WHO has the testimony of Jesus Christ?

Chris,

Allow me to make one other comment regarding hyperbole.

Who decides when God is using hyperbole and when he is not? Who decides when God is exaggerating for effect Rather than stating a fact? Is Romans 3:10-18 hyperbole? Is man's condition really that bad? I could give countless other examples that can take us in any direction that suits us.

In the passage we are discussing could "speaking" refer not to a verbal language, but to what is in the sin infected heart or spirit of mankind from birth.

When we begin to apply the methods that mankind may use in writing to interpret the Word of God, our understanding becomes very subjective and of "private interpretation".

And that is a snare that will lead us away from truth, not into truth.

I never want to even tinker with that idea.

Chris,

God does not speak in "Hyperbole". But he does often speak in "parables".

If God is truly the author of the entire Bible, and he is. Then the Bible becomes its own dictionary, and we can compare how God uses a word or phrase in one part of the Bible with any other part of the Bible to come to an understanding. If every word or phrase in the Bible is not indeed from the mouth and mind of God himself, then we can't do that.

So again, I'm sad to say, you and I are working from different authorities as we seek to come to truth.

Back to the use of 'hyperbole' in the Bible, David 0921. Hyperbole, or 'an obvious & intentional exaggeration' (Dictionary), is found throughout the Bible. Here in Psalm 58:3 (a babe speaking lies at birth; the emphasis here is on the depth of wickedness found in some people). Is this God's Word? Yes it is. Can God use such language (through his servants) to communicate to us? Yes He can. Are we required then to believe that a new born child speaks lies, or should we learn from such hyperbolic language of the severity of wicked men?

Lest we think that this is just a rare occasion of such language, we could consider other Scriptures: Deuteronomy 1:28 (cities walled up to the (skies)); Jesus' Own Words: Matthew 19:24 (a camel going through a needle's eye); Luke 14:26 (hating family & one's own life, though 'hate' used as the strongest term for 'total rejection'); Matthew 5:29 (gouging out the eye); John 4:39 (the woman's testimony that Jesus told her every account of her life); and many more.

So all these are given as irrefutable words that God has allowed into it, including hyperbolic language, metaphors, similes. Yet, they are to be understood as such, or else our understanding would take a dangerous divergent turn that can only lead to error. Which hopefully leads us to the 'eternity' question: are the descriptions of hell or an eternal raging fire for all the unrepentant, factual or simply use of hyperbolic language? So here we have the problem: why would Jesus refer to that time using that type of language, as also the apostles did (or alluded to it), when only the grave is the final destiny of the unsaved? Understood, that heaven & an eternal life in all purity & happiness with our Great God & Savior should be the desire of all; but is this wonderful message alone, sufficient to cause sinners to truly repent & yearn for God's forgiveness, rather, as there is an eternity of bliss, so there is also an eternity of woe that Christ came, giving us an escape route?

Chris I mean no offence here but if you don't mind would you please show where you get, or how you come up with the great tribulation being a 7 year time period?

Chris,

If I am reading your comment correctly, you really do not believe that God is indeed the AUTHOR of the entire Bible; that every single word or phrase in the Bible is from the very mouth of God himself. This is not a small nor insignificant difference in how we view the Bible. And our view will color every single verse or passage that we read in the Bible.

If that is truly your understanding, We each have a different authority from which we are trying to understand truth. And we can never come to an agreement on many many very important doctrines in the Bible, I am sorry to say.

AMEN Brother Ronald:

John 17:22 The glory that thou hast given me, I have GIVEN them; that they my be ONE, as we are ONE.

Oh! the grace of God that is given to man.

God bless you

I agree David0921 that what we read in the Word of God IS the Word of God to us, yet I think we might understand this a little differently. I think of 2 Timothy 3:16 which reminds us that "ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God", i.e. God-breathed through the instrument of man. I then ask myself, to help me come to grips with this statement, were these men of God who were God's instruments to hear & record God's Words to them, lacking control of their faculties (i.e. had they become almost robotic in God's Hands) when penning those words? Or were they simply recording God's Words as heard, or writing what they believed were true & accurate accounts, but were invisibly being inspired & moved by God's Spirit? Somewhat like a pastor preparing his Lord's Day message; after first seeking the Lord's Face, he begins his preparation (whether by thought, message points & Scriptures, or a fully written out sermon). He could well say that those words recorded were his own, yet knowing full well that there was a clear inspiration & leading in his thoughts & eventual delivery.

Likewise, what we read in Psalm 58:3 were essentially David's words recorded but inspired by God's Spirit & for their recording. So the difference in how we understand it might be small, but my belief is that both God's Word coupled with David's word are seen here, as throughout all Scripture (exceptions of course, when God is speaking directly). In the case of Sodom & Gomorrah, true, all were destroyed by God as the volume of their sin forced God's Hand to act. But God is both the Author, Creator, & Destroyer - yet we're not told of those very little ones, yet untarnished with sin, as to their destiny. You may believe that death was their collective punishment - I believe that at least some were spared from hell.

I'll come back to the Bible's use of 'hyperbole' next, which is still God's Word but cannot be taken to be literal; it should be understood as language used to bring on an emphasis.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8

Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Jude 1:14,15

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Hi Landry,

I agree with you, this subject is rooted in the soul being immortal that came from the Greek philosophical influence. My understanding, there is no scripture to support the soul being immortal. If someone is comforted by thinking their loved one who has died is in heaven am I going to tell them their wrong, No. Is it biblical? No, it comes from the Greek definition of death as the separation of the soul from the body.

The Hebrew word nephesh and the Greek word psuche, translated as the soul that is from Genesis 2:7 to Revelation 18:4. What is the soul? What is death if our soul which is the essence of who we are is immortal? If our soul that is who we are goes to heaven when this body dies why is there a resurrection of the dead?

The just and the unjust will be resurrected, Matt. 22:31 Luke 14:14 Acts 17:32 Acts 23:6 Acts 24:15 Acts 24:21 1 Cor. 15:12,13,21,42 Phil. 3:11 Heb. 6:2. 1 Cor. 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 1 Cor 15:42-44 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

I will leave it there; I know discussions of this subject can get pretty dogmatic and I do not want to show any disrespect to those who hold that we go to heaven when we die there are many.

God bless,

RLW

Hi again Jema,

You asked the question about who I'm referring to regarding the "just and the unjust". The just are the ones who have heard The Gospel of The Kingdom by: Jesus Christ, and believe, accept, repent from their sin, ask for forgiveness, receive baptism, and strive to pick up their cross and follow Jesus Christ.

The unjust would be the opposite; they hear the Gospel of the Kingdom and refuse and don't believe, they fail to accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and continue to live a worldly life in sin. Or alternately they hear it, believe it initially, and then fall away back into their world of sin.

The bible reinforces and insures that "Everyone that ever lived on this earth," will receive their own final Judgement.

Revelation 20:12

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Important: How were they judged? They were judged every man according to their works!!!! What??? Works??? Something we all need to really think about

GBU

Christ: Real and imaginary (intro ending)

Lot's wife never demonstrated saving faith from what scripture would indicate; at the very least desiring more to turn back to see the fate of the city doomed for destruction rather than to escape. "Righteous Lot" ( 2 Peter 2:7-8) was vexed every day; and clearly quite compromised in his dealings when he offered his daughters to the men who were trying to break down his door to commit abominations. No mention of his wife is in the scriptures; as was with Sarah; for instance in Hebrews 11.

Today in church it was discussed how Abraham was said to be the only one who was a "friend" of God ( James 2:23). Exodus 33:11 states the same of Moses as well so technically my Pastor erred. My point here I may expound on later; namely the fact that God truly spoke in a different manner to them than many others in the Bible. The friendship; in other words went both ways. The discussion also came up today in Sunday school on how He is both Master and friend. This is a mystery in itself; and forces us beyond stereotypical cultural viewpoints toward such a relationship. As for now; I will just state that Lot had to be "shoved" out of his town literally; and the angels had to put up with his ridiculous bantering about going to the nearby little town; which was promptly abandoned once Lot saw what happened and hid in the mountains. Abraham and Moses both had slow starts and their own issues; but were able to have close fellowship with the Lord as we see from Genesis 18:17 with Abraham and Exodus 32:30 where Moses acted to intercede to prevent God from destroying all of Israel. That scene is another discussion as to its theological implications.

We all should strive to be as the saints in the "hall of fame" in Hebrews 11; not stubborn like Jonah as an ox. Nonetheless these all are true believers. We CANNOT claim God's promises with an imaginary Christ or on other terms than scripture dictates and expect it to be true.

Hi once more Brother Dan , I respect your beliefs totally so I shan't labour my point any more after this post . Just to answer your statement about the ressurection of the just and of the unjust , who are they ? My belief is that the ' unjust ' are they ( Christians ) who knew their masters ( God or Jesus ) will and didn't do it . Luke Ch 12 V 47+48 . Matthew Ch 25 V 31-46 again :) , John Ch 9 V 39-41 . I shall not bother you again on this subject . Thanks for your time and I enjoyed our discussion .

Mr. Landry,

I'm not at all in agreement with the conclusions in your comment.

I do want to set the record straight on Acts 2. This chapter is talking about the pouring out of God the Holy Spirit on Pentecost where about 3000 were saved. This was the beginning of the Church Age where the Gospel was to go out into the world.

Peter's sermon spoke of the death and resurrection and ASCENSION of the Lord Jesus Christ into the Heaven.

The reference to David has to do with Psalm 16 and David, while often used in the Bible as a type of Christ, is not the object of Peter's sermon, but it is Christ Himself.

The ASCENSION being spoken of here is the ASCENSION of Christ after His Resurrection, and is not talking about a True Believer's soul which goes to be with Christ in heaven at death, as David's surely did.

Christ: Real and imaginary

Introduction

Psalm 50:21 warns of judgment coming for those who think that God is just like them; i.e. a God of their own imaginations or choosing. I have given many posts in regard to understanding correct doctrine; along with the admonition to know God not just know a lot about Him. John 6:45 explains from Isaiah 54:13 that we or "they" shall "all be taught by God."

In addition to experiential knowledge the Holy Spirit in the church age lives within every believer; in fact that implies each member of the Trinity or Triune God ( John 14:23). This has allowed us to be the Temple of God now ( 2 Cor. 6:16); which also mentions the "living God" in the verse; yet another evidence that "soul sleep" is a farce. God is not a God of the dead but the living ( Luke 20:38); which also mentions the word "all" as to who lives in Him; for all who are believers.

It is easy as believers to be one sided in this matter; and assume that the most dangerous deception is false religion (or atheism). In this; we also are ignorant of the fact that Satan wishes to steal God's Glory; hence denying the Father and Son in Spirit; but also magnifying himself as though he IS God ( 1 John 2:23; 2 Thess. 2:4). False Christs; of course are rampant as a sign of the last days. ( Matt. 24:24). This is not even the greatest danger; what is are those who are in the midst of the true believers where the Word of God is preached; somehow comforting themselves in some warped version of who Christ is to them personally. "Remember Lot's wife" is an excellent tract by Chapel Library in Pensacola which I am recommending for this theme in particular as well as for all their tracts that show the "Grace Gospel" (all of Christ; none of us basically). Scripture makes it clear the fate of Lot's wife who turned back ( Gen. 19:26). The tract makes it clear that she had unusually privileges being able to be the only married woman in Sodom who got to hear the Word of God.

Brother David921

David DID NOT go to heaven when he physically died.

Acts 2:34 David IS NOT ASCENDED into the heavens .....

Acts 2:29 Men and Brethren, let me speak to you freely, the patriarch is DEAD and buried ....

John 3:13 No man hath ascended into heaven, but he which came down from heaven and is now in heaven.

ALL MEN ARE DEAD

ONLY Christ arose; we are joint HEIRS, you don't exist OTHER than being the BODY CHRIST DWELLS IN.

A NEW CREATION, as the FATHER and SON are ONE, you are now ONE IN THEM.

This is the GOSPEL, the KINGDOM of GOD, Christ in you, sinful flesh DIED on the cross, ONLY Christ arose, a New creation arose.

1 Timothy 6:16 Christ ONLY has IMMORTALITY, dwelling in the light .... in the presence of God ......

This mortal shall put on IMMORTALITY ....

Ephesians 4:4 ....ONE body .... ONE spirit ......

Ephesians 4:6 .... ONE GOD .... Father of ALL ... above ALL ... through ALL ...in you ALL ...

ONE .... GOD ..... ALL in ALL ......

God bless you as he bring you to TRUTH.

Hi David , thanks for your reply , may I ask , what do you think that David means when he says : I shall go to him but he shall not return unto me ?

Hiya Jema...no offence....But leme give ya my slant on this 2 nd Child that Bathsheba had with David....The 1 st Child died symbolic of the 1 st child that was born by this relationship of Christ with the early Church....Which was Christianity that died in its infancy....Original Christianity was a beautiful Child but it was sick....We have not seen a child like Original Christianity for 2 k yrs But it died in its infancy....B/c the early Church had a husband which was the law....Thats y Paul said you are dead to the law by the body of Christ that you should be Married to another even to him that was raised from the dead... Romans 7 :4 ...Remember Bathsheba had to marry ANOTHER even David....My lil Children of whom i travail in birth AGAIN a 2 nd time till Christ is formed in you...At Horeb Moses married all Israel to the law....Saying this is what God has enjoined unto you....But You are dead to the law by the body of Christ....Bathsheba was dead to Uriah by the body of David....Eccle 4:15 I saw the 2 nd Child that shall rise up in his stead ( Christ stead) and there is no end to the ppl he shall be king over...Whosoever receiveth one such Child in MY name... the 2 nd Child.. The Woman in Rev. 12: 5 is giving birth to the 2 nd Child which is the H.G. the Children of PROMISE that are gonna be as the stars of heaven..Her 1 st Child Christianity died.... Micah 5 :3 Therefore shall he give them up till she that is in travail has given birth then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the Children of ISRAEL....Thats y Paul said when that which is perfect is come that which is done in parts will be done away with...We know in part and we prophesy in part but when that which is perfect is come (the 2 nd Child that spirit of truth) that is gonna reprove the world of sin and judgement and righteousness....The manchild is gona rule all nations with a rod of iron..which is the 2 nd child... the spirit of truth that is gona reprove the world of sin etc...The 2 nd Child.

Jema,

I want to add something to my original note to you on this passage.

The key verse in this passage that cements the understanding that David's child was "saved" is 2 Samuel 12:23.

But now he is dead {physically dead and his body in the grave}, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him {in heaven to be with Christ when David dies physically, because that is where David's son now resides in his soul existence to await the Resurrection at the Last Day}, but he shall not return to me {in his physical body while David is still living physically}.

This fits perfectly with what the Bible teaches about the true nature of salvation and what happens to a True Believer when they die physically.

We can pray for physical healing for a loved one while they still have physical life, if it may be God's will to heal that person. And more importantly we may pray for spiritual healing, i.e. salvation for a loved one, if it might be God's will to save them, while they are still physically alive.

While it was not God's will to return David's child to physical health and the baby died. God most certainly did save David's son before he died physically.

And all of this was performed by God in accordance with His perfect plan. And the account provided for us in the Bible for our instruction.

Hi James.

I would like to add to what has been shared by Jema and Richard.

Here is a scripture that may adress your concerns on knowing what or whether you should ask for particular things.

Romans 8:26-27.

Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Commit yourself to the Lord and he will line your heart up with his will.

I hope this helps.

God bless.

Chris,

Pardon my misspelling in my comment regarding the cities the Israelites "conquered"; not "concurred".

You cannot earn your place in the Kingdom of God . Faith is the key , you must trust in God all through your life , in the good times and in the bad . That's all He wants from you , that you will love Him and trust Him enough to put yourself in His hands and let Him guide you through this life into the next .

Hello , I don't believe that you are asking for anything that might be considered sinful . A Bible is a Bible and as long as it's a KJV you can't go wrong . In the Lord's prayer , Jesus tells us to ask Our Heavenly Father for our daily bread , so asking for a job in order to eat seems ok to me and I do think that God brings people into our lives so asking for a wife also seems fine to me . Remember though that you may have to wait quite a while before your prayers are answered , I didn't meet my husband until I was in my early thirties so I had waited a long time for him . Be patient and thank God every day for all the things that you do have . Read your Bible and learn what your God expects from you and do your best to follow the example that your Saviour set for you . You have a lot to look forward to as a Christian , in this life you may have troubles but if you stick with God He will bring you through them all . In the next life , we can't even begin to imagine the things that God has lined up for us , we shall just have to wait and see ! :) .

Also Chris,

When God brought destruction on the whole world in the flood of Noah's day or in the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, which are pictures of God's final judgement on the unsaved and the world, I think we can be quite sure that there were new born or very young babies amongst those that experienced these judgements in exactly the same way as adults. There is no distinction made.

And when the Israelites were commanded to destroy everyone in the cities they concurred, there was no special provision made for children. These also were pictures of God's final judgement on the unsaved.

Amen and thanks Gigi

That means a lot to me.

God bless you and all that you do.

Perhaps I will free up some time to join later.

Blessings.

Thank you Jema.

I am very convinced that the child of whom David was speaking was "saved". The language can mean nothing else. And God had revealed this to David.

When God saves us He gives us a brand new Resurrected Soul which in itself cannot sin. When David's child died He therefore went immediately in his soul existence to be with Christ in heaven. And David, having confidence that he himself was also saved, could expect and therefore say that he also would go to be with Christ in heaven when he died physically. As does every True Believer when they die physically. And David and his son, like every True Believer, will have their salvation completed when they receive their Resurrected Spiritual Body at the Last Day when the Resurrection and Rapture of all True Believers will occur. And David and his son, now in their complete personality, body and soul, will be "caught up to be with Christ in the air".

I am very certain of these things and believe the Bible leaves no doubt that this is the case.

This is for David 0921 , the thread is a bit out of control now so I shall start this as a new one . There is an account of an unsaved baby sadly dying , it's in 2nd Samuel Ch 12 V 15-23 . Here we read of the sad demise of David's child that was conceived in adultery with Bathsheba . Remember that male Jewish children entered into a covenant relationship with God , on their eighth day of life by being circumcised , and therefore being made officially a member of the family of Israel . We read that David fasted and prayed for this child for six days , David knew that if this child lived long enough to be circumcised , that it would be in a covenant relationship with God and would therefore be ressurected when the Messiah comes , this is why he fasted and prayed for six days . On the seventh day the child dies , uncircumcised and therefore he is gone forever . He will not be ressurected . 2nd Samuel Ch 12 V 15-23 . Everything we need to know is in the Bible :) . As David says , I shall go to him ( to the grave ) , but he shall not return to me ( be ressurected ) .

Chris,

These statements are in the first instance the Word of God and not the word of David.

They are are most certainly God's statement about mankind in general (apart from Adam whose initial condition at creation was quite different).

This is an example, I believe, of our differing understanding regarding the nature of the Bible, itself; and how God declares we are to interpret the Bible.

Yes David0921, I agree with your Romans 3 and Ephesians 2 refs, that not one of us is righteous before God as we stand (spiritually) dead in our trespasses & sins, but the Psalms 58:3 reference, "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies", requires a little more examination.

Here it seems that David is accusing the corrupt judges (vv 1,2) of gross wickedness. Such was their deplorable condition that they displayed their propensity towards evil soon after birth. He says, that "they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies"; I see that he is taking some license in using hyperbole, for how does a newborn babe speak lies?

These men were not wicked in the womb, even though David acknowledged that he himself "was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me" ( Psalm 51:5). Whether in Psalm 58 or 51, the indication is that the sin nature already exists in the embryo & of course that sin nature manifests not long after by the committing of sin. David saw that the wickedness of those men was so great that their propensity to sin was manifest soon (some time?) after birth - not in the womb. If you believe that a "newborn baby is subject to the wrath of God and eternal death..." (& by extension, it must also be subject to God's Wrath in the womb), when no sin has been committed, that would be an extreme position to hold to, which I believe is baseless. There is no Scripture at all to suggest what you state & of course all those babies that are stillborn, aborted, have their lives taken after birth or simply cannot have the Gospel preached to them for their response, are all subject to God's Wrath & eternal death (& as you understand it: separation from God into annihilation & oblivion).

The 'age of accountability' is simply an attempt to show that our sin nature is judged only when we sin outside of the womb - never inside. Sin is a deliberate act of offending God - it can't be done on the inside.