Bible Discussion Replies PAGE 257

Good morning Chris.

I hope this Lord's Day finds you, your family, and all that comment on this site well.

I want to say that I appreciate your comments very much. I read them and respond to you directly and have had discussions with you on several topics because they are likely representative of the majority view of those that post in this forum. And are, I suspect, representative of the views held today by many in the "evangelical" community and have been taught in many churches to varying degrees.

Your comments are clearly thought out and challenge my thinking and scriptural understanding as I hope mine do yours and others.

We do have a different understanding in several areas; and I believe those differences stem primarily from a difference, to some degree, in our understanding of 1) the nature of the Bible itself, and 2) how God instructs us in His Word, the Bible, to interpret what we read there.

Nothing that I say in my comments is meant to be a judgement on you personally. That is God's business, not our business, and certainly not my business. But any time any one of us are confronted with God's Word it is serious business. And I suspect we are in total agreement on that score.

I just felt the need to say this and I suspect that you have gathered that already from our discussions, which I hope will continue.

Again, God's blessings on you and your family.

Chris,

I understand why we might concoct a theory of an "age of accountability". But God puts that idea to rest in very clear and concise language.

Psalms 58:3

The wicked are ESTRANGED from the WOMB: they go ASTRAY as soon as they BE BORN, speaking lies.

Romans 3:10-18

As it is written, There is NONE righteous, no, NOT ONE : There is NONE that understandeth, there is NONE that seeketh after God. They are ALL gone out of the way, they are TOGETHER become unprofitable; there is NONE that doeth good, no, NOT ONE. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Ephesians 2:1

And you hath he quickened, who were DEAD in trespasses and sins;

Because of Adam's sin, mankind is infected with SIN and is spiritually DEAD from the moment of conception. And it requires God's action to change that condition. The Bible declares that action as becoming BORN AGAIN. That is SALVATION.

There is no "age of accountability". No matter how much we may wish it to be so.

Apart from salvation, a new born baby is subject to the wrath of God and eternal death, whatever that may be.

Page 2.

Secondly, a parable does not reveal people's names or places - for if they did, then it no longer is a parable (a simple story) but a true account with real people. So in the case of Luke 16:19-31 for example, people's names are given (Lazarus & Abraham), names which shouldn't appear in a parable; once names are given then the implication is that those people & events are real & not just a story with a message. If the story teller just used proper names or places (e.g. Lazarus & Abraham or anyone else in a parable) glibly, then he could justifiably said to be a liar, for those people did not actually exist in the story given.

Lastly, I believe in the eternal nature of the human spirit/soul - it can never be destroyed. So here then is a further hurdle we have to deal with, as to the destiny of the 'real' person, even if the body lies & disintegrates in the earth. Just thought to share these points at the outset so you know where I'm coming from. Blessings.

Page 1.

Thank you David0921, I appreciate the ongoing discussion on this very important doctrine.

Just to first consider "the idea of an unsaved baby that dies at birthexperiencing punishment that never ever ends", I confess that the Bible gives no clear teaching on this. There have been opinions given when folk here have enquired about the 'age of accountability' & even though various ages have been suggested, I think the consensus has been that the transmission of the sin nature in no way condemns a babe or adult to judgement for it. It is when sin is committed that makes a person a sinner & therefore accountable. What that age is, is anyone's guess, though my sense is that when the child (not babe) understands error/sin & the reason for discipline, that child whose heart is then smitten each time a sin is devised or performed, becomes a sinner & is accountable. Fortunately, with good Christian parenting, Sunday Schools, Child evangelism ministries, & so forth, at least this young soul can be secured into salvation, when the gravity of sin & the need of Jesus is understood & accepted.

But to your comment that 'all verses relating to God's Judgement must be considered, not isolated' are important; along with God's Mercy, His Laws, & of course Christ's & apostolic teaching given to us. This could be a long road ahead for us, but to make clear points at the start: my understanding of parables (as Jesus shared them) might be very different to yours. There are approximately 30 parables of Jesus given in the Gospels & all of them follow these two distinctives:

a. they were simple stories that His hearers could understand & identify with (e.g. a farmer, a Samaritan, sheep, treasure, coin, wheat/tares, fig tree, etc.) but these stories had a deeper meaning (of God's Kingdom & its values) & implications that weren't grasped by His listeners, including His disciples.

Texsis. I don't believe there was a nest there, just a bunch of common weeds I am familiar with. The rash never itched but I know that I do get rashes from all types of cedar plants when I brush up against the bows. So the chips must have still had some sap in them. I think that it will be healed enough in a few days for me to go without bandages and get digging in the garden beds. Hope to be able to plant seeds this week.

Cool that you make your own laundry soap. Hope your son digs into the Word and that the Holy Spirit opens his mind up to the truths it contains, especially ones that he needs to understand at this time in his life.

Going off to bed now. God's blessings to you always.

NUMBERS CHAPTER 19

Continued...

The account goes on to say that anyone who refuses to be sprinkled according to this ritual remains unclean and cannot participate in religious life of the congregation. They are cut off from the people.

Perhaps this emphasis on following the way God directed to be cleansed has a few purposes: 1) for people to recognize the depth of their sinfulness that will always result in death 2) that each person needs to be cleansed from sin that comes from our sinful nature 3) that God has prescribed on way to be cleansed from touching a dead body-there is no other way for the OT Israelites 4) For us, this rite reminds us that there is only one way for us to be cleansed of our sin-not by this rite (it is a foreshadowing)but by the sacrifice of Jesus and for us dying and rising with Him to become holy, pure, and reborn spiritually.

NUMBERS CHAPTER 19

This chapter gives God's explanation and institution of the rite of the red heifer for purification from sins.

The heifer blood of the heifer is to be sprinkled before the doorway of the tent of meeting seven times by the priest, although the priest does not slay it, nor burn it, nor collect the ashes, He is to observe this part of the preparation of the ashes for purification.

Next the whole carcass is burned completely to ashes outside of the camp. Cedar wood, hyssop, and scarlet (wool) is to be thrown on the fire to be burned with the heifer. The ashes are to be collected and stored in some type of vessel to be used with running water and hyssop in the cleansing process.

After all of this is done, the priest and the one(s) who did the work are to wash themselves in water and also their clothing. They will be unclean until the evening begins.

Matthew Henry speaks of the heifer rite being a foreshadowing of the complete giving of our Lord as a sacrifice unto death for the cleansing and remission of our sins. He says that the running water may refer to the cleansing work of the Holy Spirit at conversion. I think these are fair assessments by Mr. Henry.

Whenever someone touches a dead human body or human bones or any affects touching the body, the person is considered unclean for seven days. He is to go to the priest on days 3 and seven to receive upon himself the cleansing water mixed with ashes and sprinkled upon him with a branch of hyssop. Also, all of the belongings and things inside the tent and the tent itself of the one who has died must be sprinkled with this red heifer water for cleansing from death.

Matthew Henry also mentioned that the institution of this rite specifically for contact with a dead person demonstrates that death is a result and punishment of sin. It is directly linked with sin, since sin brings death to every person that every lived.

See part 2

Both good plate ideas.."IGOSOLO or IMALONR". That's weird about the rash. Maybe you happened some critters nest after-all it is that time of year. Pray your legs get better soon. I tried a garden, no luck. Only thing I can grow is Dandelions so I make tea. Love it. & can do herbs in window. Yet, for $30-40, I did make a 5 gallon bucket of Laundry soap that will last long & have enough ingredients to make 4 more (5 gal) buckets. Yes still at my son's. He finally realized that the KJV is the only true bible, Thank God & friend from the UK sent us some books and a bible dating back to the 1600s & it matches the KJV I have every jot & tittle so that helped his belief. Amazing how God works at times ha? Fixen to watch a movie on Pureflix..God bless & be w/you and yours.

Hi Jema,

Thank you for your recent responses. I believe that currently, we have a differing view on the subject of death, and hell. This subject comes up from time to time, and a fresh new thread may be beneficial at some point going forward. This thread is getting a little long so I will try keep this a short response without additional scripture.

You stated that Jesus spoke in parables, yes He did, but much that he spoke about was not in parables, and He can be taken very literally. An example is the verse that I gave you below:

Luke 12:4-5

4And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Jesus tells us to fear God because not only can He kill us, He can also send us to hell! I think you believe that Satan and his demons will go to hell.if so, this is the same hell.

If it is as you seem to believe; that when we die as a sinner, we just remain dead forever, Jesus would have plainly said that, and he did not. There would also be no need for a resurrection of "all souls" the just and unjust - for judgement - which is also stated plainly throughout the bible.

GB

Hi Gigi,

Thanks for the nice welcome back!



I've missed this site, and interacting with many of the folks here, including all of the regulars. I've taken some much needed time away to relocate our residence, and attend to the family, and all of the issues associated with getting settled into our new area, including some new work demanding more of my time now, than in the past.

It's so nice to see you are still very active here, along with some of the other regulars. I will check in from time to time, as time allows. Gigi, I have always admired all you do on this site to encourage and pray for so many people, and the good conversation, and sharing of all of your scriptural knowledge is a wonderful gift, and I truly believe that it is Spirit inspired!

God Bless You!

I personally have seen prayer answered a couple times for someone to find a spouse; the most dramatic was within a few days of a brother's prayer request when he met the woman he was to marry a year or so later.

I also happened to get a copy of a Dake's Bible that someone left on top of a compactor at work. I couldn't locate the person with the name on the front; it ended with Smith a rather common name. I have a few issues with it; but with over 100,000 cross references it is a valuable asset in my collection. A couple years back I helped a woman in church who was consolidating and getting rid of stuff and she offered me her collection of about a half dozen Bibles (one of which has 4 translations simultaneously in it). Eventually; my original Bible in high school started fraying something fierce (wasn't preserved well either in hot storage spaces; etc).

As to work; we are commanded to work or not eat. That comes sometimes after months of effort; but again I was able to start after leaving my workplace with full time work and extra projects in Pittsburgh when I needed to help with care for my elderly parents in the Philly area. I spent several months searching and with fruitless efforts trying to get notary work but have worked since January 2022 in my current position in Food Service.

I wouldn't even say a car is worthless. I had a 1997 Honda or thereabouts which was a trade in for a much nicer 2014 car that I gave to my former roommate in need. It wouldn't pass inspection when I got here and since my dad really can't drive anymore the ownership of his car (which was a 2004 but with very low mileage; less than the one I had from 2014) was transferred to me.

As for money; I also have seen evidences of quick answered prayer needed for missionary efforts which I mentioned somewhere last year in a comment. Remember it is the love of money which is the root of all evil not money itself. Earthly things are a test of loyalty for heavenly ones

Dear Brother Dan , hello again :) . With reference to the other scriptures you posted ( Mat , Dan , Mark , 2nd Thess ) I honestly don't see how , from these scriptures which talk about ghehenah , which is the valley of the son of Hinnom , and everlasting contempt and destruction , how could anyone get from that that people live forever in a place of torture . The last two references from Revelation are to do with things yet to take place , this lake of fire and brimstone is where , in the future , the devil and the beast and the false prophet will eventually be cast into . It ties in with Matthew Ch 25 V 41 : depart from me , ye cursed , into everlasting fire , prepared for the devil and his angels . When will this happen ? V 31 When the Son of Man shall come in his glory and all the holy angels with him . That's when they ( who are they ?) will be cast into this fire , when Christ returns to earth and ressurects the nation of Israel both Jews and Christians ( Amos Ch 3 V 2 ) we can find out exactly who it is that will be cast into this lake of fire with the devil and the beast and the false prophet by reading Matthew Ch 25 V 31- 46 . I do believe that the little verse in Amos Ch 3 V 2 , to be very significant , there are no extraneous irrelevancies in the Bible and it interprets itself .So , I think that I've explained my beliefs to clearly and given scriptural references to show you why I believe the way I do . Thankyou for your time and I've very much enjoyed being able to share with you in such a friendly manner , if you have any questions for me or would like to chat more on this subject I am very happy to do so .

Church: Beyond five senses ( John 16:8).

Sin; righteousness and judgment to come may not be the only function of the Holy Spirit but is essential. While a Word of Knowledge or Prophecy may be used to wake someone up; those filled with the Spirit and having their garments white and unspotted ( Ephesians 5:27 and other passages) who themselves are living with a healthy fear of the Lord will be noticed.

Perhaps it would be better to intentionally make people UNcomfortable by bringing them to church; it should start with ourselves when we see others who are clearly sold out to Christ that at times may put us to shame.

We know from the Word that it is the sin NATURE that is the root of all sorts of bad fruit causing behaviors (i.e. sinful actions). It seems rare today; along with the lack of fear of the Lord; "sloppy agape" as they call it for many to take seriously sin even after being genuinely saved. Discipline is needed; but of course the adage "we don't smoke; cuss; drink or dance" and other things to that affect aren't going to do anything against the power of sin. Legalism is dead by itself; along with the doing it "my way" adage. (Man all these quotes probably will get me flagged).

Lest we wake up someday in many of our churches and realize that we are a motley crew without much in common with each other and decide to call it a day and move on; often we find ourselves in the same boring pattern of worship week after week.

Once we realize how strange it is that we are; as it were His peculiar people we can understand how fellowship in the Spirit is supposed to work. It is easy to connect with the prettiest; smartest or most gifted orator in our congregation; or be more wrapped up in customs or even doctrinal knowledge than being in corporate worship of the LIVING God who ever lives to intercede for us ( Heb. 7:25 again).

How to minister to others based on giftings and callings comes AFTER we get beyond focusing on just our five senses.

The church beyond five senses: the spiritual realm (cont)

Continuing the thought of the invisible realm (see John 20:29); we begin to understand the promises of God's protection of His saints ( Psalm 91:11; Isaiah 52:12) through the angels; we see how to correctly "bind and loose" ( Matt. 16:19); how to align more closely to what Christ is interceding in our behalf in seeking His will ( Heb. 7:25); and of course see those in bondage loosed from Satan's grip ( Luke 4:18-19) taken from Isaiah 61:1.

Those who love Him keep His commandments ( John 14:21) and originally found in Deuteronomy 7:9. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom ( Proverbs 9:10 but found many other places in scripture).

For a case study; let us examine 1 Corinthians 14:22-25 where we have tongues and prophecy as applying to unbelievers in one verse then switch to believers in the next verses. This means that evidence of the power of God needs to be present AND a clear message relatable to the sinner or saint present given. In reality there cannot be a supernatural manifestation of the Spirit WITHOUT a piercing of the soul ( Hebrews 4:12) that is of course accompanied by the Gospel as the rest of the verse indicates. It also shows how a church must be corrected as He chastises all His own (found further on in Hebrews 12 verse 6).

The fact that some spiritual activity is occuring isn't evidence that God is at work; it could be demons. The fact that this was still a place where His Spirit was at work was evident in the fact that Paul's severe discipline had results; and that right quick (as the Brits like to say). This is clear from chapter 7 of 2 Corinthians. As I started off this discourse; I mentioned the Ephesians. They were threatened with total removal of their candlestick in Revelation 2. Therefore; being dead would be worse than immature; even with all the correct doctrines and outer actions; ceremonies; etc.

John 16:8 shows how the true Spirit of God works.

Good Afternoon S. Spencer,

I am one who does not think that you are looking for disputes on here. I always appreciate your input. We have agreed on so many things and others things we don't. But even so, we both desire to present our POV in the best way we can.

This is a good forum. Most of the time, conversations are helpful. At times things get passionate and that is fine with me. WE should be passionate about getting to the truth of matters concerning what God has revealed in His Word. I don't think this is being aggressive or contrary. I think that most of us are well meaning and also selective about what topics we engage in. What may be very important to one person may not be so to another. Over time we discover one another's sensitivities, which is a good thing.

So, I just wanted to respond to this post after some thought, because I wanted to assure you that I am one who respects you and your contribution. I also respect your straight forward approach, which is similar to my own. I find it refreshing to converse with someone who speaks their mind freely and directly. That helps to keep us from guessing what others are trying to convey.

We always need to consider what people are actually saying without trying to judge someone's motives or tone. I try to avoid doing this because it isn't fair to the other person to assume things they haven't communicated in words and I am one who takes people for what they say in their posts. And I say what I mean and mean what I say as well.

So, be encouraged today, Steven. We are blessed to be here together. When we all meet up in the resurrection, none of our differences will mater anymore because we will know what will actually take place before that time and after. So, all things will be made clear and we will just bask in the blessing of one another in Christ.

Hello Bro Dan,

So good to hear from you! You.ve been very quiet on here for some time. Glad that you are still with us.

Dear Texsis, thanks for your kindness to us. I know that God will turn our sons back to Him in His time. I am called to persist in prayer for them and others I know who are prodigals.

My husband is not much of a "group person". He likes to do stuff by himself most of the time. He bough a whole bunch of tools last year to do woodworking projects. We work on those together. He likes to rice solo on His motorcycle rides. I told hi I was going to get him a license plate that says wither "IGOSOLO" or IMALONR". We laugh about that, but it is very true.

Thanks for the info about the Patriot Guard.

I just got done transplanting some plants. Hubby is on a ride again today, but a much shorter one, maybe four hours. Enough time for me to get something done with my plants. A few weeks ago I weeded a big patch of ground behind my back fence. The neighbor that owns it is 84 and cannot do it. So I have done it for the past three years since they took two cedars down and left it open. Well, this time I got a really bad reaction to something in the dirt there (most likely the cedar chips left from the chain sawing. Well, both of my calves ended up severely blistered with an angry rash. I have needed to keep out of the dirt since then and have wrapped my legs with ace bandages over dressing pads to allow for healing. I have not returned to my vegetable garden since then because I need to turn over the soil to plant seeds. I am nearly healed from the rash, so I hope to get into the garden this next week.

Weird how sometimes you react to something and other times you don't.

Anyway, I appreciate your prayers and hope that you are doing well. Are you still living with your son?

Giannis & GiGi, was fixen to respond to what you said about your kids & your husband then somehow hit a wrong button, & now can't find it. So I shall say it here*. Yet first off I'd like to address Giannis & say, "I too have been in the same boat. My eldest son was satanic. He also was brought up in the faith & walked away at 17. At 36, thank the Lord, he became a believer. So you see, with unconditional love & prayer, all is possible.! Eventually we all turn back to our heavenly father. I too shall pray for you & yours.!!

*K..to original response of your kids & husband GiGi, "that's fantastic. Seems all is going well. Super happy for y'all. As for your husband & his free time, has he ever given it any thought into joining the Patriot Guard? He chooses when he rides or not to ride. I was in for a short time in Utah. Not only did we do parades, they get to be part in burning of many American flags..it's done in a 'very proper manner'.! They also do funerals for fellow Patriots & (I had to work but..) my fellow PGs were part of the ride in taking one of the last remaining "code talkers" to his resting place after his passing in May 2019. God bless & be with you both.

The Church and beyond five senses: The spiritual dimension (cont).

In a worship service; there are weapons at our disposal but if we never take them out of our holsters they are as useful as stage props. Praise clearly in the right context unlocks great victories; from the Old Testament the victory at Jericho is one great example. We are instructed in Psalms how to worship with music (and even dancing in Psalm 149 and 150). This should also hopefully help us to transcend all the barriers in our hearts so we can focus on the Word and let it have its desired effect on us as individuals and as part of the corporate Body.

Here is one example of how something can be a powerful weapon in the spiritual realm; or conversely involve "shooting ourselves in the foot". We see many "declarations" that are uttered in worship music and in certain messages by worship leaders. If it is scripturally based on God's promises; then it is used rightly; the principles of God are eternal. But when men have their own agendas; particularly when doctrinal error or some enticement to sin (such as blessing financial contributions that are motivated by filthy lucre; or relationships outside of proper marriage vows) then we can't expect God to answer with what we want. When we play games like this; making God a sort of genie in a bottle; we open ourselves up to deception and ultimately destruction. Again; as in all things there is a certain truth within all error to render greater power to the poison.

Error ultimately not only results from engaging in such practices; but it also discourages those who wish to pray for what is the Lord's will. Such can be the case when someone is moved to pray for finances; for instance for needed projects such as the missions field; who may; for example involve petitioning the Lord for opportunities to expedite the Great Commission. The blessing of true sacrificial giving may be missed because of not challenging others in the other extreme.

Church: Beyond the five senses (continued)

My previous posts have discussed the extreme of overly legalistic churches vs those who are overly emotional; in short. Within a certain context; it is often helpful when one can experience the joy of the Lord when expressed more openly in a different type of fellowship on occasion as well as those from more expressive congregants to be introduced or reestablished with fellowship in more traditional worship. There is room for correction in either case; one extreme has the warnings of the Ephesian church abandoning their first love in Revelation 2:4-5; while there are sufficient warnings not only for order as in the Corinthians church but against false doctrines and "damnable heresies" such as 2 Peter 2:1 mentions.

This discussion; to reiterate is considering a true fellowship of worship sort of example and the various styles; preferences or modes of worship that often are commonplace and overlap; as stated in the introduction based on general parameters in scripture but as we shall see often influenced by culture in a given nation more than we may observe after being immersed in such traditions for a long time. To fast forward to the big picture let's look to the supernatural realm; specifically related to the angels and demons; under the authority of Christ and Satan and what a service is like in that dimension concurrent to our actions inside a church service on earth. The test of doctrine; for example shows how to test the spirits as to which ones proclaim Jesus has come in the flesh as opposed to those who deny it ( 1 John 4:2). That may define falsehood; but it is equally true that a church can be dead and lose its "candlestick" ( Rev. 2:5) so that as the Ephesians did; have all the right words but lose any effective power for change.

Briefly; worship must contain the truth reflecting God's character and unchanging attributes as well as express worship with all of the soul; body and mind ( Deut. 6:4-7)

Church: Beyond the five senses part one

The introduction concluded with a discussion on the law in scripture. I have found it refreshing that in most Reformed or Orthodox Presbyterian congregations the 10 Commandments are usually read toward the outset of a service on a weekly basis.

That would cover either a section in Deuteronomy or Exodus; and when in the order of service often elaborated on in the sermon in the New Testament as to the implications with the New Covenant of Grace. What is often missing in the services of say; a Baptist service is a call to penitence and repentance; which sometimes is inserted immediately before a Communion service. Any service which is missing such a call before that sacred event is in grave danger of sin; not warning those to come to the table in a manner worthy of such an event. Matthew 5:23 and 1 Cor. 11:27-29 should be sufficient to warn us of grave consequences of ignoring this warning. Similar admonitions can be given for Baptisms; weddings and membership vows.

Further scriptures show how those who are in authority as elders and deacons are to be sufficiently mature in their walk and conduct; and still more (especially Corinthians) give the marching orders to establish order in a service so we may go beyond being babes in our faith.

Just as the law isn't the end all of faith; rather Jesus the author and finisher thereof ( Heb. 12:2) we should of course have agape love toward one another as the preeminent thing; with phileo and other human affections flowing from that foundation.

The opposite extreme is churches which have at best sidelined and at worst abandoned doctrines of truth for another set of rules; where there is a focus on experience; emotional highs and other manifestations; or in short a creation is worshipped rather than the Creator. We can look at the Corinthians as a good example of a true church which although chaotic wasn't beyond correction; and a false church sold out to Mystery Babylon.

Dear Brother Dan , with reference to the two scriptures you gave me from Luke : Ch 12 V 4+5 the word used in the Greek is ghehenah and it refers to a valley just outside of Jerusalem , the valley of the son of Hinnom or Ge-Hinnom , its first mentioned in Joshua Ch 15 V 8 . Excavations in that very area seem to indicate that it was used in ancient times as a rubbish tip and an incinerator . That would explain the constant burning / fire . As we know , Jesus spoke in parables . As for Ch 16 V 22-25 , there is a fascinating article on a site , I don't know if I'm allowed to say it but I can say the writers name I think ? Dr Nicholas J . Schaser , the site is called Israel Bible Weekly and it's fab . According to him , I will try to keep this brief , we Christians make the mistake of thinking that the rich man is below Lazarus , when in fact they are both on the same level , to lift up one's eyes is an ancient Hebrew idiom , used also in Genesis Ch 22 V 4 + 13 , it means to scan the horizon , read the Genesis references and that will make it clearer . The hell of V 23 is Hades , Hades is where all the dead go ( the grave ) while they wait for the ressurection . The bosom of Abraham is to Jews , a place of peace , love and joy and comes from the Jewish book of Jubilees Ch 22 V 26 : the two of them ( Abraham and Jacob ) lay down in one bed and Jacob slept in Abraham's bosom . Lazarus experiences this in Hades as he awaits his ressurection . John Ch 1 V 18 could be referring either to God or Abraham as Jews often called Abraham their father . This also gives us a more significant understanding of John Ch 13 V 23 perhaps ? The article is excellent , as is the site . Remember Jesus spoke in parables that his listeners at that time would , hopefully , understand . More later .

Church: Beyond the five senses

Introduction: There is a prescribed manner of conduct in the Scriptures which give us a basic guideline of how to conduct ourselves in public worship. The ceremonial aspects involve; more or less an invocation to prayer and beginning the service; songs of thanksgiving; a sermon; and communion on a set schedule. That and other events such as weddings; funerals; outreach; recreational activities go on more or less on a rather predictable pattern.

As to how the individual interacts with the rest of the local Body present; wherever you go there tends to be a seating and greeting pattern; a mode of discussion when approaching the Pastor; deacons and anyone else with a position; and another one for the rest of the laypersons-often dictated by the proclivities of our personalities; and mutual interests or lack thereof. Ministries tend to have a rather predictable involvement; a few individuals do the majority of service oriented projects and prayer meetings; and one or two others do most of the greeting.

A careful analysis of what is written so far will expose the fact that these activities could go on in a church where the Lord is present; to almost any other religious and perhaps non religious meeting place. The fact is; in either case we tend to familiarize ourselves with what is familiar and sort of at our comfort level. We are in danger of putting form ahead of substance; and focusing on what our natural senses dictate rather than what God is trying to say to us.

The same could be said of the law in scriptures. It is vital to drive us to Christ; as Galatians 3:24 states but never has the power to save. We love its many facets as Psalm 119 explaines in great detail because it illuminates the design of God for a peaceful society and for a manner worthy of those calling themselves citizens of heaven. It is; of course justice and mercy which Jesus excoriated the Pharisees with in Matthew 23:23 as missing.

Good morning Chris,

I appreciate your comments. And I agree that there are verses which seem to indicate that God's punishment for sin is "conscious existence experiencing punishment that never ever has an end".

But ALL of the verses relating to the nature of God's Judgment must be considered and not isolated from anything and everything in the Bible that might relate. And this very definitely includes 1) what the Bible teaches about the Mercy of God, 2) any Laws God lays down regarding punishment, and 3) the fact that Christ spoke in parables.

I fully understand that correcting an understanding that has existed in the churches for centuries is a serious matter and should not be undertaken lightly or quickly.

I will attempt to address some of the specific comments related to this question over time, although I will not have all of the answers.

For now though, I will just ask us to consider the idea of an unsaved baby that dies at birth spending an eternity, consciously experiencing punishment that never ever ends; over against what the Bible teaches about the Mercy of God. And I am aware of no teaching in the Bible that would suggest otherwise if the conventional understanding of God's justice and judgment is correct.

May God open our understanding as we continue to search the scriptures.

Thanks Bro. Landry....Gbu....Much truth in what you are saying....

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Or, the account of those three in hades: Lazarus, the rich man & Abraham. Was Jesus deceiving His disciples by instilling fear in them about eternity that the rich man was in torment in hell ( Luke 16:23,24)?; & this was only the first judgement - he had to still stand before God in the resurrection readied to be cast into eternal fire. If the full consequences of man's sin & rejection of his only hope from God for his salvation is rejected, can man ever expect any other Mercy after death?

And finally, I think I remember your comments from a while back, relating to how we use the Scriptures & I referred to biblical hermeneutics. I apologize if that wasn't you, but your name seems to stick in my mind. The comment I believe was 'the Bible in its entirety must be our ultimate authority, comparing Scripture with Scripture'. I do acknowledge the Scriptures that you believe support only a physical death at the end, as punishment, but I also gave you others, which you can look at above in this thread. I'm using the same rule that you gave us; how do those Scriptures & those that others here have given you, apply/complement/fall short of what you believe? Because of your earnestness to consider all of Scripture, I would be very interested as to how you bring these seemingly opposing Scriptures to your understanding. Thank you & blessings.

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Thank you David0921 for your reply. I just wanted to confirm that this was your belief, even though you had mentioned, "When was the last time you heard a sermon that focused on the Judgment and Wrath of God for sin?" I couldn't imagine what this 'sermon' would have entailed, given what you earlier stated. And even now I wonder, if you were the preacher dealing with this subject of the spirit & soul's eternity, how you would describe the "Judgement and Wrath of God for sin"?

May I suggest that your message would simply be one of death, annihilation, to be forgotten forever? And if you had to share the Gospel with an unbeliever, this is also what you would tell him but that there is hope of an eternity of new sin-free life with his Creator & Redeemer? But he might ask, as I certainly would, 'if death is the only punishment for my sin, then don't WE ALL HAVE TO DIE SOME DAY?' 'And then if this resurrection into new eternal life is the blessing because of my turning away from sin unto a Savior, what would it matter to me if I were dead & never experience this new life since there is no knowledge of God or of eternity in the grave?'

In other words, to an unsaved person with no regard to his many (enjoyable) sins in this life, knowing that one day he will die & leave it all behind, why shouldn't he continue in such a state on Earth if only a physical death & no more was at his end? I know that in my previous life of much sin, this type of Gospel wouldn't have moved me at all - life in sin would be more preferable knowing that death would just mean a total cessation. But the Holy Spirit impressed upon me the nature of my sin, the Wrath of an Holy God towards sin, & the awful consequences to reject His Offer of Love & Forgiveness. Should I have refused (though in my situation with the burden of the Spirit, refusal wasn't an option), should I then expect that God would still show me favor with just a punishment of a death which comes to all anyway? to Pg 2

Is it offensive to Jesus and god for me to pray for something I want in life? For example, I prayed to Jesus for A nice bible of my own, and for a job, and I've asked to have a good woman that I can love and marry to be placed in my life. I am reading the bible each day and follow its teachings without deviation or interpretation. But I haven't figured out what I shouldn't ask from Jesus, I don't want to pervert the word of god or the love of Jesus by asking for material things, I will never ask for something shallow and meaningless like cars or wealth. But I want to stay connected to the lord and the world, I want to earn my place in life and in heaven, I can't tell if its wrong to ask the lord for help with finding work, a woman to love, and a bible.

Thanks Brother.

I concur and God bless you in all that you do.

Be strong in the Lord.

Blessings.

Hi Brother Ronald.

Good to hear from you as always!

I was just emphasizing a portion of those verses that emphasizes everlasting punishment by the hands of the Lord.

( he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever.)

Psalms 75:7-8. But God is the judge: he putteth down one, and setteth up another.

For in the hand of the LORD there is a cup, and the wine is red; it is full of mixture; and he poureth out of the same: but the dregs thereof, all the wicked of the earth shall wring them out, and drink them.

God is Love but he is also a righteous Judge.

Torment is everlasting I believe because the heart of the wicked is everlasting and uncurably evil.

We have discussed my take on the Holyspirit restraining evil in

2 Thessalonians 2:6-7.

I mentioned that because man has no Idea how evil he really is apart from the restrainer/Holyspirit.

When the restraint on evil is taken out of the way you see a picture of man continuous rebellion even in the midst of torment in

Revelation 16:8-9.

I believe you and I along with others have discussed this in the past and I know we have different views on this however we respects one another view.

I believe Sasha had opposing views on this belief and was heavily engaged in these topics and later suze. Perhaps they're checking in from time to time!!

It's getting late Ronald,

Perhaps we will talk over the weekend.

God bless you.

God bless you.