John
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Colossians 1:15-18 as in John 1:1 what beginning is John writing about, this gives a different understanding, In Colossians what creation is Paul writing about if we look at it as the start of all creation, the angels the counsels of heaven as we see in Job 38, they were before this earth or is Paul writing about the new creation. Is Paul referring to Jesus before He was crucified? Or is Paul referring to the risen Christ? In Christ is the resurrected Christ not the Christ when He first came.
One other thing and Giannis can let us know if I am correct or not in verse 16, by Him, the Greek is en auto meaning in Him as we see in 2 Corinthian 5:17 Ephesians 1:4,9 Colossians 2:6 to be in the risen Christ. Paul is talking about the new creation. 2 Corinthians 5:16-19 to be in Christ is to be a new creature/creation and reconciliation, this is this world and in heaven as we see things in heaven is as bad as on this earth and Jesus Christ is to make all new.
Hebrews 1:3-4 Jesus was made much better than the angels, this after He was totally obedient died on the cross and raised from the dead and ascended to heaven above all that is in heaven and earth. and in Him all will be made new. He was made means He was not before He completed what His Father sent Him to do. Matt. 28:18 John 3:35 John 5:26-27 John 6:39 what Jesus did and had was given to Him from the Father.
I know this is short, I may be away for a while but hope to reply more soon.
God bless,
RLW
Yes, the belief of the Eastern Orthodox church about Jesus is He didn't exist for ever but at a time before the creation of the woorld He was born/came out of Father God. The amended Nicene Creed which was a statement of faith states among others "(I believe) and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (ons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;". That statement was came out in 381 AD during the first ecumenical(universal) council of Constantinouple. So it was what all christians believed at that time. The church was still united at that time. The Roman Catholics also use it (with an extra addition about the Holy Spirit). So this is what the Catholics believe as well. They also believe that all saved people will be somehow "deified by grace". Probably they are using John 17:2, "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us:..." and 1 John 3:2, "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.". But John here says that we don't know what we will be, so that "be like Him" may not refer to Jesus' nature. Anyway, we know by part as the scripture says.
I am sory about your wife. Was she remary in an Orthodox church? Yes they allow as many as 3 mariages. Sadly they say a lot of excuses about that, thus canceling the Word of God.
Also I don't understand what you are saying in "The other weird thing is how we are supposedly in our material bodies somehow tied in some mysterious way to the creation like it is still happening or something if I get that right.". If you like explain that clearer please. God blesses.
True, we may not conclusively know the Form He took in Heaven, whether as the Word within God's Person (just as the Spirit in God was sent out), or as another Form outside of God yet closely connected to Him. The issue here is, whether Jesus existed (in some Form) prior to His appearing on Earth. If not, what do we do with such verses as given here? Can we really reinterpret them in any other way? Is that even possible? And we could add Micah 5:2 (a coming Ruler not going forth from Bethlehem, but from eternity), John 3:13 (Who was in Heaven, coming down from Heaven), John 6:38 (come from Heaven), John 8:56-58 (Jesus existed even before Abraham), Philippians 2:5-11 (His equality with God, but laid it aside to come & serve man), & Hebrews 1:1-3 (through Jesus God made the worlds).
I've understood your comments on Jesus' Life & Death as per His earthly sojourn. But unless we can understand Who this Jesus really is (i.e. whether a Creation of God to fulfil His Plans on Earth, or God Himself, He Who was from the beginning), then the substance of this Mystery can never be resolved. That is why textual examination is so important, especially when we can see other Scriptures that confirm our understanding. I apologize for not referring to your other comments (e.g. the soul/spirit, firstborn, etc), but wanted to keep this short & focus on Jesus before His appearance on Earth. GBU.
Part 2,
John 17:5 I may not be able to answer this satisfactorily, but I do not think Jesus was in heaven other than in God's plan in God's thoughts as the word logos is the expression of a thought. When Jesus was baptized, He was anointed without measure by the Holy Spirit/Ghost, John 3:34 at that point Jesus was given power and authority John 5:26-27 and then Matthew 28:18.
All through the New Testament Jesus said what He said, what He did, and the works that were done was God His Father and not Him, John 14:10, it was the word of God, God was manifested in Jesus everything was given to Jesus, He did not have it before God the Father gave it to Him.
God dwelt in Jesus and Jesus in Him, I feel Jesus became the Tabernacle of God, as His name shall be called Emmanuel God with us, same as Jesus told Peter, John 14:9. Jesus had the full measure of the Holy Spirit/Ghost this is why He said what He said in John 14:17 they saw the Holy Spirit/Ghost because it was with them in Him that gave Jesus the power for God to do the works/miracles.
This was in the prayer Jesus was praying to His Father just before He went to the cross, Jesus was asking His Father to glorify Him so that He may glorify God so that we might know the only true God. John17:1-3 Mark 12:29.
Colossians 1:15-17 I will try on this one, "in the image" is a mirror-like representation that Jesus was, like He said to Peter if you have seen me, you have seen God. Man cannot see God nor look on Him, John 1:18 Jesus was the faithful witness Revelation 1:5 and a witness tells or reveals the truth, and Jesus showed us the truth of who God is the only true God.
Jesus was the first and everything in God's thoughts and mind, Jesus was there in God's mind but was not sent until the fullness of time, Ephesians 1:10. I feel that is why Jesus said over and over it is not me but He who sent me.
I know we may differ, but I hope I am showing honestly my understanding.
See part 3.
God bless,
RLW
So the claim to Christ's Divinity is not an issue after His Birth, Life & Ministry, rather, the issue is even before His Birth to lay down His Life. I consider John 15:13, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down HIS life for his friends" and 1 John 3:16, "Hereby perceive we the love (of God), because he laid down HIS life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren." (Noting, that "of God" is in italics, thus not in the original). And from these verses, I ask, 'are we seeing simply Christ's Love for all that caused Him to lay down His Life in sacrifice, or are we also seeing God's Love for all in bringing forth a Son for the purpose of providing the one & only Sacrifice?'
It is true, that Jesus' love for sinners was His prime motivation to give up His Life in redemption; but if it was also God's Love for all people that caused Him to provide a sacrifice, can we measure or understand that Love, by Him just creating a suitable sacrifice or by giving up His Own Life for us? An earthly perspective: is real love & salvation seen by someone calling out to another to help a child caught in a rip, or should not that the man himself go out & risk his life to save? It's easy to get someone else, but true love is by doing the job yourself. And God did that in the Incarnation.
There are so many verses in the Gospels that they are too much to quote here. The idea is that Christ showed numerous times His role in the Godhead as submissive to the Father. John 5:19 is an excellent example where Christ stated that He could do NOTHING on His own but what He sees the Father doing He then does. Some of these issues no doubt were unique to the time He came to die as a man on the cross; which could be the premise of Matthew 24:36 also repeated in the book of Mark. Even HE didn't know the day or the hour of the return of Christ.
Before going on we can learn a lot about the nature of God in this relationship; much like the submission of woman to man in a marriage. Somehow in the Godhead Christ follows the actions of God in His work. It is clear through the death on the cross that HE was indeed part of the Godhead but that God the Father also had to take a role in holding the whole universe together for if it was only Jesus then it would have ceased to exist at His death as I see it. The counsels of the Godhead no doubt were involved with these plans before the foundation of the world for this plan as ( Ephesians 1:4 is but one example; also see Revelation 13:8 for the end result of this predestined plan for those who would be saved).
The plurality of the Godhead is also mentioned in John 14:21 to 23. This shows the Father and Son; and no doubt the Holy Spirit seals us in the day of redemption as well. ( Eph. 4:30). Also of course there is John 3:16 about God so loving the world and sending His son that whoever believes in Him will be saved. '
Oneness argument #3 Arminianism. The book of John is excellent in showing the Godhead as well as elements of Predestination involved with this. UNDERSTANDING THE GODHEAD TIES INTO CORRECT UNDERSTANDING OF PREDESTINATION. It also ties in with holiness (Argument #4). True holiness must stem from a new heart reflected in outer actions; not from our actions.
No translation is infallible.
Most of our short comings in the word of God is probably in the area of faulty hermeneutics and a lack of taking in the whole counsel of God's scripture.
If the KJV or any other translation was the only one available there would still be much error.
The error is in man!
.
It's nothing wrong with the seed, It's the ground where the issue often is found.
God's message of any doctrine doesn't hang on one verse.
If you removed John 3:16 from the word of God would you loose It's message?
YOU SHOULDN'T!
Don't doesn't have a problem with a blood tipped ear and eyes that see.
The word and the work of the Holyspirit is infallible
John 3:16 is spreaded broadly throughout the bible.
"FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD, We don't solely depend on Jn 3:16 to tell us that!
"THAT HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON,"
We don't solely depend on Jn 3:16 to tell us that!
THAT WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH, BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE. We don't solely depend on Jn 3:16 to tell us that!
I use the king James Bible however it's not perfect but don't let that get in the way!!
God doesn't have a problem conveying his message.
Balaams donkey didn't have the KJV either.
Study the word of God!
It patches itself up.
God bless.
After creating man God blessed them:" And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth" (Ge.1:28)", "Be fruitful" was a divine command.
(See under A-Abstract)
In the Parable of the Barren Fig Tree "Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?"( Luke 13:7). The Spirit refers to the Son with the number Three. The parable therefore is about believers, which are unproductive. The fig tree unable to produce fruits of the Spirit represents them.
In the Parable of the Sower birds eat up some seeds falling on the wayside, and some are unfruitful owing to the condition of the ground. The evil one is the destroyer that can prevent the word of God from becoming fruitful. The same destroyer is the enemy who scatters tares in a field while men slept. Deceitful riches can choke the heart, which is compared to a field. Jesus Christ was manifested to destroy the works of the devil.(1 John 3:8)
Satan is the destroyer, whose deceit upset the order that God had created for Adam. He is also a thief who dares not come by the door. For this reason he beguiled Eve through a serpent. "The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy."( John 10:10,1)
The cross first came into use as an emblem of Christianity after. Constantine the Great in 313 AD (on the eve of a crucial battle) seemed to have seen a flaming cross in the heavens bearing the inscription, "In hoc signo vinces", meaning 'By this sign thou shalt conquer'. Accordingly he adapted the cross and called it the Labarum.
Be that as it may a cross has two arms crossed so by mode of inversion he that came down from heaven is the same who ascended and the central beam tells its own story. ( John 3:13) The Son of man came down to fulfil the will of his Father. So the cross plank signifies the gospel he preached and his Great Commission connects the far ends of the earth into one fold.
Cross has undergone many shapes as the doctrine of God is suitably altered each after his own fashion. St Andrews cross is as different from St Antony's cross; for that matter Greek Orthodox cross differs from Latin cross. Despite of what names given to the type of cross, spiritual meaning can only be understood by taking up his cross and follow the way he chose. "He that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved"(Matt.24:13)
A cross is this made up two aspects in the ministry of Reconciliation in which direction and position bind heaven and the earth as one.
He became a curse for us fulfilling the provision of the Law of Moses. "Because anyone who is hung on a pole is under God's curse".(De.21:23) God willed also his Son to be the one who redeemed mankind. "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us,(Gal.3:13).
His doctrine in the Son gave a position for all those who believed in God through his Son. He became the captain of their salvation from one end to the other.
The Spirit uses the word continual in keeping with the Holiness in which both Power and Wisdom are at play. He sent forth his word that shall never return void. (Is.55:11) So continual is firmly is the order of the Father Son relationship. "My Father worketh hitherto, and I work," has events unseen as well as made to appear that owe to this continual action.
Consequently the Abstract presented in the Book of Genesis Ch. 1 refers to the Everlasting Covenant, which is unseen. Whereas the Abstract like 7 bullet points- and the Spirit calls them as day, refers to the generation of Jesus Christ. Why call it day? In Ps.2:7 God refers it as such, and "This day I have begotten thee," is part of the decree so it stands. The generation of Jesus Christ begins with the day as set down by the Spirit. "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens."(Ge.2:4)
"In the beginning" refers to this day (Ge.1:1). Compare this with the verse where new heaven and the new earth are presented (Re.21:1), the adjective 'new' is the culmination of the continual action to which both heaven and the earth play their parts set forth in the Abstract.
The Spirit uses the word 'continual' in another sense. The devil sins from the beginning, which also have consequences till the day of Regeneration. 'He that is in you is greater than he that is in the world.'( 1 John 4:4,18) His works are however subject to God purging from time to time. (1 John 3:8). Perfect love casts out fear.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (Combined with Matthew 5:5 and Revelation 5:10)
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
John 3:
31 ...He that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that GOD is true.
34 For he whom GOD hath sent speaketh the words of GOD: for GOD giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of GOD abideth on him.
In general, Christ's arrival as a suffering servant which should have been clearly understood from Isaiah 53 was largely missed even by the 12 disciples who expected a conquering king. This was to be in the future; as was made clear by the reading of the scroll when Jesus read Isaiah 61:1 and stopped before 61:2 which involves His return. Christ knew what was in the heart of men ( John 2:24-25) so He didn't need anyone to explain themselves to Him. This discernment in the Spirit is a spiritual gift; but with Christ who was God in the flesh He had the fullness of the Spirit without limit ( John 3:34).
Christ also came to forgive men's sins. This was considered blasphemy by the religious leaders who immediately tried to stone Him in John 8:59 after these claims in verse 58 as being the "I am". Clearly; the contentious crowd at His trial before the crucifixion who demanded that He be crucified and Barabbas a murderer released showed the blindness of the condition of an unregenerate human heart. Judas Iscariot recognized through worldly sorrow that Christ was a righteous man that was betrayed ( Matthew 27:4 technically an "innocent man"); but the Centurion showed saving faith ( Matthew 27:54).
These passages demonstrate the importance of recognizing Christ as God the Son; not merely a good teacher or righteous man (see Matthew 16:13-20). The hidden significance of these things is still blinding the unregenerate ( 2 Cor. 4:3-4); and the Jews have been blinded until the time of the end as we seee in Romans 11:25. It is "in part" as there are Jews who recognize Christ (called Messianic Jews by some) but until Jesus is returning according to Zechariah 12-14 the nation as a whole won't recognize Him. This is quite remarkable as the world in general knows they are hiding from Christ and God's judgment during the sixth seal. This; no doubt is because of the epicenter of Antichrist's deception there.
I had an interesting discussion with a friend of mine who is a young Pastor last week. In it; he was lamenting an individual who claimed that Christ died for him (or her). This was because the evidence of it through this person's behavior would indicate otherwise. It is indeed true and necessary that we all have a personal understanding and experience in regard to salvific faith and repentance granted in regard to being one of God's elect if indeed we are saved. Clearly "accepting" Christ as Lord isn't really doing anything beyond what demons do and shudder ( James 2:19). Confession with the mouth and belief in the heart must coexist ( Romans 10:9-10); it is more than just a verbal declaration of facts. Nonetheless there should be some understanding of the atonement; as well as evidence that the heart has been changed with the spirit convicting of sin; righteousness and judgment to come ( John 16:8). As the Lord states "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh" ( Matt. 12:34 and other related verses in New and Old Testament). What John 3:16 is indicating is a state of belief; not merely a one time thing (as translated correctly). Enduring to the end shows that it isn't our own strength which brings about this result; since we all struggle with sin as long as we live ( 1 John 1:8). Nonetheless we have the capacity to live a life of Holiness; since greater is He within us than he who is in the world ( 1 John 4:4).
There are variations of strengths and weaknesses that we all have; some are steeped in doctrines but rather cold in affection towards God; others seem to be caught up in experiences at the expense of wisdom from the Word; and often they seem to have little grasp of repentance or deem it not worthy in very much discussion. There is ample substance in the Word for the Spirit to enlighten us; and any personal vision or dream must be subject to the Word; if in variance then it must be discarded.
MORE TO COME
Part 6.
It was the failure of the man Adam which led to his lineage being cursed as sinful creatures, and according to God's justice; this would necessitate another man to do the opposite; to respond in faith which would mandate that He be sinless.
Sin is alway produced because of a lack of faith.
Wherein Adam did not have faith in God wherein he would trust that God would give him a mate he would love as much as Eve, and therefore chose not to trust God and to go his own way.
Sin is choosing to do things man's own way rather than trusting God, no matter how difficult the situation becomes.
Why - For God's Righteousness
Righteousness in mercy do not function together. If you are a judge and you give out mercy then you are not being righteous. Hence, how could God be merciful the man and yet still righteous concerning sin.
Righteousness demands that sin is punished.
God therefore made sure that sin was punished by him who did not deserve it, so that those that did deserve it could receive the blessing Of him that did.
Jesus was treated like us, so that we could be treated like Jesus.
All of this is done so that God could be both righteous by not merely forgiving sin without punishment,as well as merciful by giving man an opportunity to re-enter fellowship with him, God's righteousness demanded a radical answer to the problem of man's sin.
Since the offense came by man, righteousness demanded that the answer come by man.
This is why Jesus had to become a man to save mankind.
Jesus maintained the essence, "The Incarnation of Christ God's Essence and Attributes" of his deity, in that the Holy Spirit came upon Mary, wherein Jesus became a human.
This is where we get the term "begotten" regarding Jesus as seen in John 3:16,
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
See Part 7.
Thank you, there are different understandings of who Jesus was and is, whether He was a man born of a woman His Father being God, or the incarnation of the eternal Son the second member of a Triune God, fully man, and fully God. However, one believes Jesus was without sin from birth to death. There was no sin in Him, He did not commit any sin. He is the spotless Lamb that was slain for our sins. He lived a perfect life that no man has ever done or can do, before or after Him, 1 Peter 1:19 1 John 3:5.
God bless,
RLW
c. "How have we been justified? Christ has paid the full penalty, eternal DEATH for the sins of those He is saving by being perfectly faithful in taking upon Himself all of the sins of each of His Elect". John 3:16 states that God so loved the world (not just the Elect), that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish". Here, I understand that God's Love extends to both the Elect & non-Elect (the world), but of those in the World who place their trust in Him (proving they're the Elect of God), will not go the way of eternal damnation, but of eternal life.
d. Did Christ die "an eternal death" for us? Not sure if you meant that Christ died & saved us from the eternal death that we were destined for.
Part 4: you referred to the Galatians' passages. The reason for Paul's reference to the Law, was because of the Judaizers (Jewish Christians - Galatians 1:7) who taught those in the Galatia region, that obedience to the Law was necessary (Works) for salvation & Paul's Gospel was defective (i.e. justification by faith alone plus nothing, not even the Mosaic Law).
So from here we begin to separate in our understanding of this Doctrine of Salvation. You have asked the question, "So what is a good WORK? Are our BELIEF, our FAITH, our REPENTENCE good WORKS? The best definition of a "good WORK", I believe, is "any obedience to the COMMANDMENTS of God, the LAW of God". Of course you believe that not only obedience to the Law of God is a 'Good Work', but also belief, faith, & repentance are. 2 Thessalonians 1:11 does not speak of Faith as a work towards salvation, but of having Faith that works in the believer's life & Paul prayed 'for a powerful faith in them'.
Ephesians 2:8,9 is actually a great example of a God-given Faith in Salvation, which is not included in a works-based salvation. Faith is God's Gift to believe - leading to salvation.
Jesus took on the sins of the whole world. (THAT MEANS MADE AVAILABLE)
When we are born again "BORN OF GOD'S SPIRIT" We are saved!
We can no longer be charged with sin. 1 John 3:9.
The Holyspirit quicken these mortal bodies so we no longer "SERVE" sin. Romans 8:9-14.
There is no way for a child of Adam to be saved apart from being born from above. He was born with an inherited sin nature.
Unlike Jesus, we have to be born "Again" JESUS NEVER HAD TO DO THAT!
He was conceived of the Holyspirit. Matthew 1:20.
The penalty of sin was Judged/condemned/sentenced in the flesh. (In other words it was sin that was on trial, Not Jesus!
I believe that's what that phrase means. (Condemned sin in the flesh)
The meaning is separate from Jesus taking our judgment on the cross.
There is one event but two trials taken place here.
1) Our sins being Judged.
2) The penalty of sin, which is Death.
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 15:49-57.
God bless.
"And Jesus saith unto them, How many loaves have ye? And they said, Seven, and a few little fishes."
The Spirit gives the number Seven to indicate God's completeness so we have seven 'days' relating to the God document, the Holy Bible. (Ge.1) The House that Wisdom built has seven pillars, relating to 'my Father's mansions.' Seven golden candlesticks (Re.1:12) covering all those who are called and chosen for eternal habitations. Similarly seven seals relate to the judgment upon the disobedient beginning with 'woe to you' and sword, death and pestilence three horsemen color coded are spread out while the word gone forth from the mouth of the Lord is shown as the first horseman 'went forth conquering, and to conquer. We are told that he is none other than the Son, "and his name is called The Word of God.'(Re.19:13) It is of him Moses referred, "Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my nameisin him."(Ex.23:20-23)
Now the Isaiah quote: "So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, "This is also tagged Seven which we infer from the martyrdom of the Two witnesses. "And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet;." What affrighted their enemies was the fact that resurrection is indeed true! The everlasting life promised to the world ( John 3:16)shall be made manifest. Sending the bread of heaven was one part and gathering the broken remains in seven baskets prove this part of the Isaiah quote:"but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." Testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."(Re.19:10) After healing the leper Jesus told him, "but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony."(Matt.8:4)
Matthew refers Testimony of Jesus to indicate, "it is done."
Thank you for this discussion, it is good to hear salvation is not dependent on this doctrine I have been told in many Churches I have attended I was not saved and was a heretic and shunned.
You know Greek better than I, but my understanding is the word Godhead which was added in the 1500s was translated twice and is misleading. Godhead is in the Bible 3 times, Acts 17:29, Greek word theios which means divine, Romans 1:20, Greek word theiotes which means divinity, divine nature, and Colossians 2:9 Greek word Theotetos which means deity.
The verse Colossians 2:9, in Jesus, dwelleth all the fulness of the deity of God, Jesus was filled without measure with God's Spirit/Holy Spirit John 3:34. John the Baptist said God had told him when Jesus was anointed/baptized John 1:32-33. God dwelt in Jesus and empowered Him by the Spirit. God gave Jesus power and authority Matthew 11:27. In John 1:14 we probably differ, God in Jesus dwelt/tabernacled among us. God was manifest in Jesus, John 12:49 John 14:10.
Mark 2:5-8 in Matthew 11:25 Things were hidden from the wise and prudent, Scribes, Sadducees, and Pharisees were the ones accusing Jesus of blasphemy, as we see in Matthew 9:6-8, the same event multitudes glorified God. Jesus was given full authority in Matthew 28:18 and John 17:2-3 that we should know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom the Father sent, same as all the introductions, greetings, and blessings given to the followers of Christ in the New Testament were from God our Father and our Lord Jesus Christ and in Revelation 21:22.
All authority has been given to Jesus by the Father until the last enemy, death is put under His feet, 1 Corinthians 15:25-28 Revelation 20:14.
May our discussion inspire study.
God bless,
RLW
In today's society; we have found a way to extricate our minds from within when it comes to the subject of slavery. What happened hundreds of years ago is someone else's problem or said to be our fault by default as to our race. Closer to home now; of course is the continuing servitude particularly of the sex trade today and that brings attention to the revenue of such a trade.
That; of course comes from those who would exploit such an industry who themselves in actuality are slaves to sin.
Revelation makes it clear; unfortunately that slaves will exist in the end times will exist ( Rev. 6:15). At that time they will be clumped together with all those who attempt to hide from God.
Christ has redeemed us from our state of hopelessness and given us a new life. We have turned from Satan as our master to the Living God ( Ephesians 2:2). A truly redeemed child of God can read a passage such as Isaiah 66:24 and understand how they themselves were an abhorrence in their lost; sinful state. To know that we were under His wrath we proclaim the salvation message. Those who are condemned already ( John 3:18) are not known to us immediately; eventually it will be clear who is saved and who isn't at least by judgment Day. Such amazing love of Christ should motivate us to share the Gospel with others.
I am convinced one reason more people aren't sharing with much conviction is because they have become dumbed down to just how wicked they were; forgotten what they were saved from or in the worst case scenario are really not saved at all but following a form of godliness but denying the power thereof ( 2 Tim. 3:5). It is sobering to remind ourselves that as believers that scripture warns us to stay AWAY from such people.
Satan; I always say is an equal opportunity destroyer. He will take any sin; as seemingly innocuous as gossip and turn it into a full scale conflagration (see warnings in James 3:6). Only Christ frees us from slavery.
"But the importance is that everybody must settle it in their own hearts and minds about who Jesus is." So true. This has been discussed I think most know my understanding on this.
Was He just a great man? 1 Timothy 2:5 Numbers 23:19 1 Hosea 11:19 Corinthians 15:21-22 Was He just a great teacher? John 3:2 Was He a great healer? Luke 4:18-19 Was He a prophet? Deuteronomy 18:18 Was He the brother of Satan? No, He is the only begotten Son, John 3:16 1 John 4:14. Was He Michael the archangel? No, Hebrews 1:5. Or was He God in the flesh? 1 Timothy 3:16 manifest, (make clear, make known) John 5:19. Did Peter give the right answer? Yes.
This doctrine was developed almost 400 years after Jesus's crucifixion, today in Christianity salvation is dependent on the belief in the Trinity doctrine. If that is true. Why is it not taught anywhere in the New Testament?
If Jesus is God why would God have to anoint Him with His Spirit? Did Jesus do the works and the miracles or did God the Father by His Spirit/Holy Spirit? Is salvation at the mercy of the belief in the Trinity doctrine? Did Jesus say the Father was His God? Could God fulfill the law that was made for man? Did God give Himself or His Son that we would not perish? If we say Jesus is God, do we deny the Son?
Jesus said this, John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Acts 4:12 God bless,
RLW
What does the Word of GOD say?
Re.11:4 - These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. (Whatsoever is more than these or is added comes of evil).
The two olive trees
are to produce oil for the two candlesticks.
They are the Old and the New Testaments-i.e. the Word of GOD-, the Word is GOD, understand? John 1:1
The two candlesticks
are two Churches: The Jewish Church - Hebrews 12:23; and Gentile Church: John 10:16
For example: Revelation 1:20 - ... the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches (of Asia).
Who will be in the scenary from now on or in this end of the time is Michael, a prince of the LORD sent by JESUS as the God of the earth (as Moses was sent as the God of Pharaoh), he appeared to John in the midst of the seven candlesticks as one like unto the Son of man. Now he will be in the midst of the two Churches -TWO CANDLESTICKS as above cited- and to the TWO OLIVE TREES above cited WILL BE(IS)given Power to shut heaven that it rain not in these days of THEIR prophecy: and have Power over waters (OVER PEOPLES, AND NATIONS, AND MULTITUDES OF ALL TONGUES-FOR HE THAT IS ABOVE IS ABOVE ALL- John 3:31-36) to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. The Word is GOD, self-executing, understand?
Be careful and get ready
Jesus will continue to answer in the next verse by reiterating the first of His three shepherding-related analogies from this chapter. This puts His answer in plain terms: I already told you who I was, but you're not going to listen.
(Part 1 of 2):
Thank you for sharing your understanding on this topic. I always enjoy my discussions with you. We are in agreement that God is love. In fact, God is Agape, the highest form of love that exists. We are in agreement that God does not have pleasure in the death of the wicked. That's why He has provided a way for the wicked to be redeemed. We are in agreement that God does not want us to perish. Some take this word perish to mean cease to exist completely. Some teach annihilation. That, I do not agree with. I also don't agree that Hell is only the grave because both believers and non-believers alike are going to end up in a grave (unless the Lord comes for us first).
I agree that the bible tells in Ezekiel Chapter 18 that the soul that sinneth shall die. I believe it is the soul that makes up our entire being. Can our fleshly body exist without a soul? As far as salvation goes, did Christ come to redeem our flesh, or did He come to redeem our soul? I say that my soul has been redeemed, not my flesh. My flesh is rotten to the core! I agree that there are different degrees of punishment, but as you know, I also believe that whatever the degree of punishment is, it will be forever.
In my studies of the Greek, I have come to learn that the word for death means separation. This is why I believe that when our physical body of flesh dies, our soul will separate from our fleshly body. The body will rot and decay in the grave, not cease to exist as some say. I do not believe in soul sleep.
I do agree with you that eternal life is a promise. However, what we differ on is when this eternal life begins. For me, I believe I have eternal life right now. There are several verses in scripture that speak of eternal life/salvation being present tense ( 1 John 5:11, 1 John 5:13, John 17:3, John 10:28-30, John 3:36, John 4:14, 1 Timothy 6:12). These are just some verses that speak of eternal salvation being present, not future.
Part 2 to follow...
Hi Valmar. Thanks for addressing my question & I do agree with you on the incomprehensible Work of the Spirit in giving healing, exhortation, etc. What I was looking for pertains to your subject, viz. a believer's eternal security. And also to a comment you made, "the ability to lose one's salvation rests completely with that individual".
The way I understand the Scriptures, is that if we have the ability, or power, to lose/relinquish our salvation, then it presents questions not only to the Spirit's Work in saving a lost soul, but also the power we have to over-ride what the Spirit has done in our lives. Clearly, you believe that a saved sinner can either choose to depart Christ or to remain faithful to Him. My question then is: is it in the new spiritual make-up of the one now found 'in Christ' to ever desire to leave the One Who has delivered Him from so great a penalty & given him a new life with peace, joy & hope? Here, I'm not referring to a saved soul who through negligence or appeal of the flesh or Satan, strays & toys with the world. I'm confident if that soul is saved, then the Spirit will not let him go; and Momsage shared an apt testimony of this very work of God in her & her husband.
So to my question, I believe the more relevant Work of the Holy Spirit in one's life is that: He Convicts man of his sin ( John 16:8-11); He Regenerates, or gives re-birth to the penitent sinner ( John 3:3-7, Titus 3:5, 2 Corinthians 5:17, 1 John 2:29); He Indwells ( 1 Corinthians 6:19, Romans 5:5, John 14:16); He Baptizes ( 1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:5); and He Seals ( 2 Corinthians 1:22, Ephesians 1:13, Ephesians 4:30). I'm sure you're conversant with these Scriptures, showing that salvation & securing is all of God, without any contribution from man. To Page 2.
1st John 3:[8] He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
[9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God
If Jesus told you: "Sin no more.You would answer him by saying, "I can't."Or "I don't believe you."Or "No one is able to stop sinning except you.""???
Matthew 3: 1 At that time John the Baptist appeared, preaching in the wilderness of Judea.
2 He said,Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say,Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Your just calling Jesus a liar when you claim you can not stop sinning as sin is ungodliness it is of the devil 1st John 3:8. Do you think the grace of God came so that we can still live like bastard children of the devil and no change in our life? God forbid. No sinner can make heaven unless thry repent abd give it up.
Titus 2:11] For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
[12] Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
[13] Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
[14] Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Jesus never died to make a new type of sinner? Called a Christian sinner? he died so that we can be free from the devil we can be holy, rightous, santified, perfect, ready to meet him.
I understand in delays in replies many work and have family responsibilities. This subject is being discussed by several people and I just wanted to share a few points of my understanding on it. The questions were not directed towards you, you can reply to them if you want but they were some of the questions I wrote down when I was studying this subject because some Scriptures seem to support both understandings if not deeply studied, not saying you have not.
Scripture tells us God is love, 1 John 4:8,16 and we have been told God does not have pleasure in the death of the wicked, Ezekiel 33:11 caries us to John 3:16 God does not want us to perish. The Bible tells us the soul that sinneth will die, Ezekiel 18:4 God preserves the souls of the saints Psalms 97:10 the faith and belief in Jesus by the grace of God can save our soul Hebrews 10:39.
Scripture tells us of various degrees of punishment like in Luke 12:46-48 Revelation 21:8. In Genesis 2:7 man became a living soul/being, my understanding is the breath of God is the spirit of life which goes back to God when we die whether lost or saved and this body becomes a dead soul that sleeps in the dust until resurrection then the judgment Revelation 20.
To repeat, eternal life is our promise it is something we do not have, only by faith and belief in Jesus Christ by the grace of God we will receive this gift when we are resurrected not before. If we say our souls are immortal, we are saying we already have eternal life, and it is just where are we going to spend it?
My understanding is the lost and wicked punishment is eternal forever, not the punishing, Satan and the fallen angels the beast and false profit will be tormented day and night for ever and ever as we see in Revelation 20:10, but they are not mortal beings like we are, and we see in Matthew 25:41 it was originally prepared for them.
Just my understanding of Scripture thanks again.
God bless,
RLW
This seems pretty clear to me and hard to misunderstand it unless someone tries to twist it.
If someone doesn't believe punishment is eternal then maybe someone should likewise question whether heaven is eternal, because this verse states them both as being everlasting / eternal.
The Bible says the soul will die, the 2nd death, perish, etc. But how do you know that's not the eternal part, or how can you prove that God allows someone to actually suffer without a soul, etc. Basically people are just speculating, and its not going to get very far.
But perhaps we can all agree that hell is bad and heaven is good? Hell is punishment and something to be avoided, and we need Jesus to avoid it. John 3:16 says this.
Revelation 20:10 - And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
You can safely say some will be tormented day and night for ever and ever, because that's literally what this verse says.
Mark 9:43-48 - unquenching fire- you can safely say that hell isn't immediately going away, either. It's likely in full operation.
Revelation 14:11 - And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Daniel 12:1-2 ever lasting life vs ever lasting contempt
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 everlasting destruction. This might debunk the human reasoning idea that death or being destroyed must only happen in a short timeframe. This says it can happen 'ever lasting' which seems long term or eternal. So, this verse now explains all the other verses where it makes sense.
Revelation 14:11 smoke of their torment for ever and ever. That doesn't sound immediate or short term to me, but forever.
God bless you.
John having given a warning of false teachers, John returns to the theme of this section.
Believers are to Love one another.
It's not Eros: romantic, passionate love.
It's not Philia: intimate, authentic friendship.
It's Agape. love that involves selflessness and compassion which the Spirit causes us to be totally given over to.
It's supernatural Love that the Holyspirit puts in our heart toward each other.
What makes this degree of Love "Agape" special is that it is directed! God causes this degree of Love to be aimed towards one another. When we were of the world, we loved darkness. ( John 3:19) And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men "LOVED" darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. "Agape is used here as well. Notice where it's directed. "DARKNESS"
Agape towards the Brothern is a fruit, not a command. Only the Spirit of God can enable us to extend this degree of love to others.
Verse 8, He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
Verses 9-13.
In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
Verse 16.
And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
Verses 20-21.
If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
Good night and God bless