All Discussion PAGE 2913

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Secondly, the Rapture is taught by Paul as a Mystery ( 1 Cor 15:51-53) & alluded to by Peter ( 2 Pet 2:4-9). Even though the prophets in the OT spoke of future events that they had no knowledge of, it became something that was revealed later on, whether in the OT or NT. So too with Christ's Coming: this great day had been spoken of in the OT & again by Jesus, but it was only through Paul that showed that the Day of the Lord had another important matter attached to it, viz. the removal of the saints prior to the Great Tribulation. How did he learn this? Paul doesn't enlighten us.

Thirdly, the event described in 1 Thes 4:15-17 can be simply understood that the saints will be 'snatched away' & taken to be with the Lord (in Heaven), before the Wrath of God is poured out (on Earth). If this passage is applied to His physical Second Coming for his people, then is it then just a physical removal from various nations to be transported to Jerusalem? Maybe, the impossibility of quickly obtaining an air ticket or visa for Israel would unnecessarily delay matters, hence the 'free ride in the sky'. I have to understand this Rapture as a removal, to Heaven, of the Saints, as the spectacle of God's Judgement is laid open to all in His Presence.

Fourthly, the Trump of God. I realize that this is commonly taken to refer to the last Trumpet in Rev 10:7 & it appears as a correct assumption. However, whenever the trumpet is sounded, it can also be in relation to a heralding ( Ex 19:13; Lev 25:9; Josh 6:5, etc.), so the last Trump may even be the final 'clarion sound' from a series of earlier trumpet calls to the nations (e.g. Ps 47:5; Isa 27:13; Jer 51:27). This is just a thought & certainly not assumed, but shared as another application to 1 Thes 4:16).

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Hi Carlos. Good to connect with you again brother. You're probably well acquainted with my position with Eschatology as from my other comments, but to deal with the questions you asked:

I know I won't find agreement with other 'pre-Tribbers' either, but then where can you find two believers in total agreement on everything? So, it is my sense that wherever we find Jesus speaking on His second Coming, it is specifically on His Coming post Tribulation. I realize that certain folk see the Rapture events mentioned in the Gospels as well (e.g. "one taken, the other left", "of that day & hour knoweth no man", etc), but I believe that Jesus wasn't speaking about the Rapture; indeed, the Rapture was not even declared by the prophets or Christ.

So what then makes me understand the Rapture as an event, pre-Tribulation? As stated, firstly, it is the removal of the saints prior to the outpouring of God's Wrath. Whenever we see God's Wrath being poured out (& examples given earlier), His (righteous) people have been taken to safety. And I was specific about HIS Wrath as compared to the trials/tribulations that come upon us daily or even in an overwhelming way. And as been also stated by Ann & others, our sin has been judged at the Cross & we don't fall under His Hand again. Is it correct that we should presume that God will still need to pour out His Anger on His blood-bought, when God's Anger (& our sin) was laid upon Christ on our behalf (Propitiate: 1 Jn 2:2, 4:10)? Whereas, His Wrath must be directed to those who have rejected Him & His Christ, without even the seed of saving faith to secure them from any judgement.

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Hosea 11:1, as per commentary:

11:1 Was a child - In the infancy of Israel. I loved him - Manifested my tender and paternal affection to him. Called my son - Adopted him to be my son, and as my son, provided for him, and brought him out of servitude. Out of Egypt - But Israel, the first adopted son was a type of Christ the first - born. And the history of Israel's coming out was a type of Christ's future coming out of Egypt.

Jesus's parents were told to shelter in Egypt until the death of King Herod; then they returned home.

That is correct GOD would never change his name. I was referring to 35:10 where GOD changed Jacob's name.

Thanks for the help that makes sense. I will reread chapter 35 with your help you have given me.

It always amazes me how fast Christians are ready to attack other Christians so quickly without understanding the question, even call them names.

Thanks for being one of the good ones Chris.

Carl

I have to say I haven't kept the feast days I'm only learning about this over the last year or two I should have started doing something by now,however the more I read in the holy scriptures,the more I do not believe the feast days we're done away with on the cross.

Chris, see this is where everybody gets confused. You have to either believe the bible and that GOD knows all things or you don't.

The only way I can truly believe and trust in GOD is that he is or he isn't or the bible is or it isn't. So using your logic GOD did not know that Satan was not going into the garden, which would mean GOD has no control over Satan. GOD has control over everything or he doesn't. GOD allowed the devil to attack JOB without GOD's permission Satan could not of attached JOB. GOD has a plan for us and what that plan is nobody knows. The part of the plan I don't understand is why did GOD let Satan temped EVE.

I believe that the only thing that was done away with on the cross was the ceremonial laws the sacrificial laws nothing else the feast days I believe are still to be followed

My 49 y.o son has always been spiritual and follows the scriptures. His marriage was based on his partners pregnancy.It turned out to be loveless marriage. They are now divorced but he feels guilty because what the Bible says about divorce

His life is stifled and can't move on.

Should he return to a loveless/ sexless mariage because of the scripture ???

BSP on Hosea 11:1

what dose it mean ? Sunday school

comments by Alex on Malachi 3 Who shall abide the day of his coming , Who shall stand when he appears ( 2 ND COMING ) For he shall be as a refiners FIRE and fullers soap a cleasing fire i.e his baptism of fire that we all Need as our GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE THAT IS GONNA CONSUME MANS ADAMIC SINFUL NATURE. Thus every man ( sinner ) will have his part in that lake of fire which is his baptism of the H.G. AND FIRE . Thats y he said i come to bring fire on the earth meaning on mankind Remember th Red HEIFER SHE HAD TO BE BURNED TO ASHES AT THE DOOR of the tabernacle our old evil adamic nature is gonna be burned to ashes at the door of our hearts ya remember he said he wd not leave them root nor branch nothin is gonna beleft of our old man,behold i make all things new .Satans head is gonna be crushed his head is our old adamic nature which is in rank with satan, thats y he called Peter satan . There is absolutly nothin wrong with this beautiful earth,its mans sick nature that needs to be destroyed, not the earth with all her beautiful things. All ways remember our God is a consuming fire and that gives me hope. gtg gbu

Anyone who have been taught the scriptures and have read them should know that what they are reading and what they have been taught is the true Word of God and that we should believe and obey the Word of God. To reject the scriptures when someone tries to share them with you is utterly destruction for that person's soul. God tells us that " If we love Him , we will obey Him. " " God's children know His voice". If we reject the child of God , who was sent to warn us about our sinful actions, not only are we rejecting the messenger but we are rejecting God; we are condemning our own souls! God does not condemn us- He does not have to- it is mankind that makes the choice of sinning against God with no remorse because the heart has been seared with a hot iron.

Chris, I don't understand the reasoning to support a pre-tribulation exit and Christians being judged twice. Bob Hilt pointed out that Matthew 13 is a parable specific to the Rapture and Return of Christ. Do we have to stretch the imagination to come up with a justification for a rapid exit before the Tribulation? Can you give us more details?

I think that in light of what is specifically stated by Christ in Matthew 24:29, Paul, Peter and others, anything said that invalidates that is suspect. Where specifically is Matt 24:29 contradicted?

What is the Scriptural basis for saying, for example that, "yes, he is coming on a horse, but he is going to sneak in before that on foot?"

Ann,

Should a person have to read how to be saved if they're already saved? It seems as though you are making an assumption that Adam is not saved? I've read most of his posts and I see no reason to doubt that he is saved. I would like to comment on the faith and works portion of your post if you don't mind. You say that for faith and works, it can't be both? I think that for a person who belongs to Christ, it is both.

Works show proof of faith. James 2:14 says, What doeth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him? Literally, can the faith save him? The question itself in Greek expects the answer no. Can the faith save him if he says he has faith but does not have works? The word works in the Greek text literally means activity.

If we put faith and activity together, we understand that if God's Spirit is present in us, there will be activity (Works). Works do not produce faith. But faith produces works. Martin Luther had problems with James because he said that James contradicted Paul's teachings because Paul said that we're justified, not out of works but out of faith. But James said if you don't have works you don't have faith. So it sounds like they are contradicting each other.

But Paul talked about the root of the tree that faith does not come from out of works. James on the other hand talked about the fruit of the tree. That is to say, if you have the faith of Jesus Christ, you will bear fruit (Works) from the Spirit of God.

Jesus said that in Matthew Chapter 7, by their fruit you shall know them. We don't produce fruit. God's Spirit in us produces fruit. And that fruit is evidenced by good works. Paul talked about the root (Christ) where salvation comes from. James talks about the activity (Works) of God's Spirit in a person's life. So I would say that for a true believer, there has to be both.

Yes, we are not saved by human works, but once we are saved, there will be activity (Works).

There were children of God from Adam to christ's death who were in abraham's bossom.

Had christ not died and resurrected, they would remain there in limbo forever.

Abraham's bossom was next door to hell in the heart of the earth, with a huge space, (chasm) separating them.

I believe jesus stood or floated between them and preached the gospel while both sides listened.

The people in hell I don't believe repented. The bible says in revelation that they still cursed God...

Those in abraham's bossom were set free and now are with the Lord in heaven.

Anyone killed for the word of God and for jesus christ, are the souls under the altar in heaven. Rev.

The dead in christ resurrect just before the rapture. And people say the rapture happens before the tribulation.

If that were true, the resurrection of dead in christ would happen first, followed by a rapture.

But that's impossible. because a resurrection happens before the rapture.

When does the bible tell us that the first resurrection happens???

Revelation 20:1-6 says the first resurrection is after the tribulation after the beheadings.

So if nobody is resurrected until after the tribulation, how can a resurrection and rapture happen before the tribulation?? It cant!!

Therefore After the tribulation, Jesus appears in the clouds and the dead in christ rise. Everyone from Adam all the way to the believers from the tribulation.

Then those who are alive and remained from the tribulation, will be caught up and changed together with those who resurrected.

They all meet jesus in air and float to mount of olives. The tribes mourn because they see Jesus descending from the air with ten thousands of his saints. Then the thrones are set up and we rule and reign with Christ for a thousand years.

Hebrews 1:8 says that only jesus is called a son of God. So the Angel's are not sons.

I understand that job calls someone sons of God but its not fallen Angel's.

May God bless all who read this.

Hi Ann, this is a predictable discussion. I know all the verses you shared and agree with them, because I believe in the Bible- all of it, not just cherry picked verses. Have you read the entire chapter context around these verses? Because it completes the thought and explains what exactly it means. I can pluck out things too that only share part of the picture, like 1 Timothy 2:15.

You said something before worth analyzing: "FAITH or WORKS??? It CAN'T BE BOTH!"

Why not? Who said it can't be both? It is both. The Bible already says it's both and even already predicted this exact believe and refused it. James 2:17 says faith without works is dead- do you believe that? If not, what is your explanation for not believing this part of the Bible?

Since you believe Paul, do you believe what he wrote in Romans 7? He talked about his deep struggle in trying to avoid sin and do good. Why would he struggle if doing good isn't necessary one bit? He called himself captive (prisoner) of sin. He was in deep torment to try to do good. If no good works was necessary why didn't he instead just party and live a life of sin and not worry about spreading the gospel, if he was already 'saved'? The Bible makes the answer clear.

James 2:19 - even demons believe in God and Jesus, including satan. So, if all that's needed to be saved and go to heaven is to believe does that mean satan will go to heaven? If not, why? Hitler attended church and might have been a Christian in his early years, so will we see him in heaven too, despite Romans 2:6?

Is it 'wrong' to do good works? If so, why does the Bible say in multiple places to do good? Matthew 7:16-23. Jesus says most people will go to hell and you'll know his followers by their fruit. If good isn't needed, then why would Jesus say this. Was he lying? It would be a very hard argument to make that living a fruitful life of good works is 'bad', because that's exactly what the Bible says to do and how you can recognize genuine Christians. Christians aren't saved by good works, though. That's a logical fallacy to assume that. Grace alone saves. If someone wants to follow Jesus, however, it requires action, doing things.

Reading the entire chapter context of the Bible clears up such misunderstandings. God bless you in your journey for the truth.

Marie,

The Jews are gathered in Jerusalem to celebrate the Feast of Passover. Jesus was crucified on Friday.

There are 12 hours in a day.

John 11:9 "Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day?"

If there is midday

Acts 26:13 "At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me."

and midnight,

Exodus 11:4 "And Moses said, Thus saith the LORD, About midnight will I go out into the midst of Egypt."

then we can say that the day starts at 6am, and the night - at 6pm. That shows that 3rd hour falls at 9am and 9th hour (when Jesus died on the cross) falls at 3pm. (New translation translate just like that).

Mark 15:25 "And it was the third hour, and they crucified Him."

Matt. 27:46 "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken Me?"

Bible mentions unusual darkness between 6th hour (12pm) until 9th hour (3pm). The darkness can't be seen if it's dark already...

Matt. 27:45 "Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour."

If there was Wednesday and Thursday, then I believe the Bible would have mentioned days instead of just hours.

Not understanding this comment.

Willie,

Just stand on the scriptures, God will take care of the rest, He will honour Your stand on His Word.

Acts 2:38 KJV

[38] Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Find someone who will baptise you in the name of the Jesus Christ, if you haven't already.

Then you will not be tossed about by every ones opinions.

John 16:13 KJV

[13] Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

He will guide you into all truth.

1 John 2:27 KJV

[27] But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

ye need not that any man teach you

There you go Willie, that's God's Word.

Stand on it, He promised it. Praise the Lord.

Faith leads to obedience.

John 15:7 KJV

[7] If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

You want Him to settle this doubt, ask Him and believe Him when He said - it shall be done unto you.

Matthew 24:35 KJV

[35] Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

God bless you

Saints of GOD please pray for John Omeonu from Benue state Nigeria, for healing and restoration.

WE BELIEVE BY FAITH ,HIS IS RESTORED. The spirit of infirmity is broken. he is free.I see him laughing with his 10 grandchildren.

Amen

Comments by Alex on the man legion living in the tombs. Legion was MANY as there are many living in the tombs under the Law. The law said the soul that sinneth shall surly die thus we are in the tombs under the law. And legion was without clothing and so are we under the law simply b/c the law exposes our sinful nature. Legion means Many script. says that Many men tried to tame legion with chains and fetters but he broke the chains and fetters to pieces and was driven OF THE DEVIL into the wilderness . ( OUTSIDE THE HOLY CITY ) THE CHAINS AND FETTERS WERE OF IRON BUT THEY WERE WEAK TO LEGION .What the law cd not do in that it WEAK thru the flesh God had to send his son in the form on sinful flesh to condemn sin in the flesh. The laws and commandments are strong as iron but they are Weak to the flesh meaning mans carnal mind is satans head spirit .Carnal man breaks every law and commandment to pieces just like legion broke every chain and fetter to pieces. Many men try to tame their sinful adamic nature with laws and commannments ( chains and fetters ) but we break every law and commandments to pieces. What the law cd NOT do in that it was weak thru the flesh God had to send his son in the form of sinfull flesh to condemn sin in the flesh. simply b/c the law cd not do it. Only Christ cd tame legion by his living WORD, whom the son sets free is free indeed but the law cd not set mankind free. Jesus said whosoever sins is the servant of sin thus we are not free just yet till this corruptible puts on incorruption, and this mortal puts on immortality near future.nobody can tame the beasts that lives with n us as James said all the beasts in the world has been tamed by man but the tongue can no man tame the tongue is an extention of mans carnal mind mans carnal mind is the beast.That which is born of the flesh is the beast When they brought Josephs coat to Jacob he said a wild beast has done this and he was right the 10 born of the flesh was th beasts and still true. gb

Mary Jane,

The Scriptures - not tradition - puts Jesus crucified on Friday.

Jesus represented a sacrificial lamb in the 1st Jewish Feast, Passover. The timing was as predicted in the Bible. Jesus knew that His time has come.

Ex. 12:6 "And ye shall keep it [lamb] up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening."

John 13:1 "Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that His hour was come that He should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved His own which were in the world, He loved them unto the end."

1 Cor. 5:7 "For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us."

Lord, set up Your Kingdom in my heart today. I need You to continue to teach me more of You O LORD Of All! May my soul thirst continually for You. Thank You for paying my sin debt at Calvary. Jesus is the sweetest Name I know. I will Praise You!

Ann Hering, I have to disagree with you. There is no distinction in the Bible that would warrant belief in 2 separate Gospels. However:

1. Do any of the writers of the New Testament support the allegations you have outlined? That is, do any of the writers of the NT say what you say you have been taught? Does Paul say that the Gospel he preaches is different than what Peter preaches?

2. Does the teaching you point to, provide hard evidence, not conjecture or speculation? For example, Peter tells us to listen to Paul's teaching, because they are Scripture, 2 Peter 3:16:

"Consider also that our Lord's patience brings salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him. He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. Therefore, beloved, since you already know these things, be on your guard so that you will not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure standing. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever."

You cite a lot of verses that have nothing to do with the Bible message. But not only do you cite them, you change their meaning by adding words that don't belong.

Tell me, Ann, who were Sylvanus and Marcus, that Peter writes about in 1 Peter 5:12f? Finally, tell me what the difference is between the Gospel Peter preached and what Paul preached?

In Acts 16:4, we see Paul and Silas "And as they went through the cities, THEY DELIVERED THEM THE DECREES FOR TO KEEP, THAT WERE ORDAINED OF THE APOSTLES AND ELDERS WHICH WERE AT JERUSALEM. And so were the churches established in the faith."

Paul proclaimed the Gospel the Apostles outlined for everyone in Jerusalem. It was one Gospel message.

In this chapter we see Joel is a prophet of God in the reign of King Joash some 800 years before Christ. His message is timeless pronouncing that sin brings God's judgement with a plague of locusts. In making application we see how sin devours our life just like the locust so when we choose to sin we are choosing to bring destruction our way. Today many believe their are no consequences to sin but the truth is sin always complicates and robs us of God's best for our lives. How about you? Do you see the consequences of sin? Let us learn from our text today and the words of Joel who reminds us that sin is like a locust in our life that will devour God's best for your life.

Pray for financial miracle blessing and breakthrough

Prayfor

Gospel work

Bible distribution work

Film ministry

Church planting

Monthly help support for 200 villages pastors an evangelist

200 bicycle for 200 village pastor an evangelist

Pray may God bless us and make away

and providing the needs miraculously supernaturally

Pray blessing of our ministry

Children home and family

Thank you

Adam ...

The Word of God is CLEAR!

Salvation is by GRACE through FAITH in believing that Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins, was buried, and rose again!

That's IT!

Galatians 2:16

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Romans 11:6

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

2 Timothy 1:9

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Romans 4:4

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Galatians 5:4

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

I AM sticking with WHAT Paul SAYS!

You SEE Salvation is just BELIEVING in what Jesus Christ DID for US!

NO WORKS required!

I have decided to worship and return to God. I don't believe I am worthy. I have been a christian all my life but for the past 15 years or so I have been a none believer.

I want to spend the rest of my days learning how to return to God. At the moment I feel that I am asking God to be in my life for selfish reasons, to be saved and have everlasting life in Heaven with God. I am a spiritual person and I believe in being from other realms, I meditate and try to reach my inner self, but I find it difficult. I have doubts in the stories in the bible and the message it is portraying.

I used to feel emotional and feel the closeness to God. Now I find it difficult to feel.

Please pray for me to feel that closeness to God, and help me to wash away the doubts I feel.

Thank you.

3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

Note: all nations, the kings, the merchants, were partners in this fornication /sin, especially when we consider the lust of the flesh, eye, pride of life, seduced them and us. So this part of the wrath mention here shall come forth because Jehovah / GOD has declared it. Thank GOD for SALVATION through verses such as John 3;16-21 plus giving all time to prepare.

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"Also, if a sinner who did not follow Christ in this life, if he begs for forgiveness and mercy, do you think God has a limitation on his mercy? The picture God you paint is not All Love, and All Merciful, and All Powerful." I referred to this previously, in connection with predestination. But for a Loving, Merciful God casting all who reject Him & His Christ, into fire, then isn't that a Holy attribute of a Just & Lawful God? If we take out punishment from the equation, then what are we left with? And what are we to do with the abundance of Scripture that warns of an eternal damnation & for those Christ gave His Life for, the martyrs who were executed, & for the glorious worth of our salvation that gives us Heaven as our goal & not as those destined to join Satan & his followers in the Lake of Fire?

So, I thank you John for your comments - you've exercised my mind & spirit superbly.

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4. "The Fire of God". Once again, the Scriptures cited are relevant in every detail. Then I get to: "if Jesus meant to save all men, and fails to fulfil that promise, he missed the mark, and that would make God a sinner. The whole world is in His hands, not mens hands." I ask, what was that promise that God made & maybe could fail to keep? Was it, that ALL men would be saved? Even if look at Jn 3:16, we see that as a result of God's Love, He sent His Son to be the Saviour for all, but not all would be saved (whoever believes would not perish). We are never told that the Gospel would mean the salvation of all people, but the means by which all would be saved. I could never see Eph 1:10 & Rev 5:13 as applicable to the eventual salvation of all people. As well, then why the need for the preaching of the Gospel, why teach about leading sanctified lives, why give the promise of His Coming, when eventually all (saved & sinner) will be preserved to eternal life?

5. Rom 14:11. If the criminal had to stand before an earthly judge, they will do anything to justify their actions & hopefully find respite from the severity of their sentence. But to stand before our Great & Holy Judge? Their only response would be to fall before Him in full submission to His Glory & full admission to their filthiness before Him, regardless of their eternal destination. No more excuses & no more hypocrisy - "all will stand 'bare' and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do" Heb 4:13.

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